Off Topic: The Flood
This topic has moved here: Subject: Today marks the 71st anniversary.
  • Subject: Today marks the 71st anniversary.
Subject: Today marks the 71st anniversary.

"I will show you how a true Prussian officer fights!"

"And i will show you where the iron crosses grow..."

- "Cross of Iron"

That is not the sole reason, whatever you read is incorrect. They attacked for the resources and to knock out our fleet long enough for them to consolidate there new gains.
Posted by: Murcielago00

Posted by: DarkestSeptagon
Posted by: culexus
Did anyone ever work out why they attacked Pearl Harbour?

Was it simply because they thought the US would not allow them to build an empire in the Far East?
According to Wikipedia the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor to destroy the U.S fleet which would keep the U.S out of Japan's way while they're taking over the East Indies for precious resources.
Based on what I read and know (look at my above posts), I'd say it was more a result of the inter-service rivalry between Japan's Army and Navy at the time. With the Navy trying to get a cut of that sweet government funding.

  • 12.07.2012 8:30 AM PDT


Posted by: Prototype117
Also lets take a moment to remember the jews, and the innocent japanese that were killed because of you americans, oh and lets not forget the thousands in kokoda oh oh and the butchered soviets etc.

  • 12.07.2012 8:39 AM PDT

"I will show you how a true Prussian officer fights!"

"And i will show you where the iron crosses grow..."

- "Cross of Iron"


Posted by: DarkBen64

Posted by: Prototype117
Also lets take a moment to remember the jews, and the innocent japanese that were killed because of you americans, oh and lets not forget the thousands in kokoda oh oh and the butchered soviets etc.


They all have days to remember them. Think of how stupid this post is...This day is for remembering American lives lost. I have also stated many times in this thread various reasons for all of these. Unfortunately no one has any idea what there talking about pertaining to history because they have only learned crap in school.

There is victory day in Moscow, there is a holocaust memorial day, and a day for everyone else.

How about you honor all of those people that you seem to care so much about by actually reading about the war and learning instead of spouting what you learned in 5 minutes in history class.

  • 12.07.2012 8:42 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:


Posted by: Raptorx7
That is not the sole reason, whatever you read is incorrect. They attacked for the resources and to knock out our fleet long enough for them to consolidate there new gains.
Posted by: Murcielago00

Posted by: DarkestSeptagon
Posted by: culexus
Did anyone ever work out why they attacked Pearl Harbour?

Was it simply because they thought the US would not allow them to build an empire in the Far East?
According to Wikipedia the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor to destroy the U.S fleet which would keep the U.S out of Japan's way while they're taking over the East Indies for precious resources.
Based on what I read and know (look at my above posts), I'd say it was more a result of the inter-service rivalry between Japan's Army and Navy at the time. With the Navy trying to get a cut of that sweet government funding.
I never stated it was the sole reason. The reasons for the Japanese attacking the US are complex. And a quote from one of the sources I cited earlier...
For example, in 1934 when asked whether the Navy contemplated war with the UNited States Navy, Admiral Suetugu Nobumasa replied: "Certainly, even this is acceptable if it will get us a budget" (Barnhart, 1987, p.39)

  • 12.07.2012 8:42 AM PDT

"I will show you how a true Prussian officer fights!"

"And i will show you where the iron crosses grow..."

- "Cross of Iron"


Posted by: Murcielago00

Posted by: Raptorx7
That is not the sole reason, whatever you read is incorrect. They attacked for the resources and to knock out our fleet long enough for them to consolidate there new gains.
Posted by: Murcielago00

Posted by: DarkestSeptagon
Posted by: culexus
Did anyone ever work out why they attacked Pearl Harbour?

Was it simply because they thought the US would not allow them to build an empire in the Far East?
According to Wikipedia the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor to destroy the U.S fleet which would keep the U.S out of Japan's way while they're taking over the East Indies for precious resources.
Based on what I read and know (look at my above posts), I'd say it was more a result of the inter-service rivalry between Japan's Army and Navy at the time. With the Navy trying to get a cut of that sweet government funding.
I never stated it was the sole reason. The reasons for the Japanese attacking the US are complex. And a quote from one of the sources I cited earlier...
For example, in 1934 when asked whether the Navy contemplated war with the UNited States Navy, Admiral Suetugu Nobumasa replied: "Certainly, even this is acceptable if it will get us a budget" (Barnhart, 1987, p.39)


That was from 1934...

  • 12.07.2012 8:43 AM PDT


Posted by: Raptorx7

Posted by: DarkBen64

Posted by: Prototype117
Also lets take a moment to remember the jews, and the innocent japanese that were killed because of you americans, oh and lets not forget the thousands in kokoda oh oh and the butchered soviets etc.


They all have days to remember them. Think of how stupid this post is...This day is for remembering American lives lost. I have also stated many times in this thread various reasons for all of these. Unfortunately no one has any idea what there talking about pertaining to history because they have only learned crap in school.

There is victory day in Moscow, there is a holocaust memorial day, and a day for everyone else.

How about you honor all of those people that you seem to care so much about by actually reading about the war and learning instead of spouting what you learned in 5 minutes in history class.
I lost a member of my extended family in Japan and 2 in Pearl Harbour. I think I know what I'm on about.

  • 12.07.2012 8:43 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:


Posted by: Raptorx7


That isnt true. They didn't attack without warning them government. The government was autocratic and run by the military. They all decided to attack Pearl harbor and even had there diplomat speaking to our government as they attacked Pearl harbor...
Source?
I scoured my sources and can't seem to find anything to back up my claim that they attacked without the government's knowledge, so you may be correct with that. Although, the Japanese Navy did have a history of going against direct orders (but it was during WWI).

  • 12.07.2012 8:44 AM PDT

"I will show you how a true Prussian officer fights!"

"And i will show you where the iron crosses grow..."

- "Cross of Iron"


Posted by: DarkBen64

Posted by: Raptorx7

Posted by: DarkBen64

Posted by: Prototype117
Also lets take a moment to remember the jews, and the innocent japanese that were killed because of you americans, oh and lets not forget the thousands in kokoda oh oh and the butchered soviets etc.


They all have days to remember them. Think of how stupid this post is...This day is for remembering American lives lost. I have also stated many times in this thread various reasons for all of these. Unfortunately no one has any idea what there talking about pertaining to history because they have only learned crap in school.

There is victory day in Moscow, there is a holocaust memorial day, and a day for everyone else.

How about you honor all of those people that you seem to care so much about by actually reading about the war and learning instead of spouting what you learned in 5 minutes in history class.
I lost a member of my extended family in Japan and 2 in Pearl Harbour. I think I know what I'm on about.


I think that's great(that you know what your talking about and my condolences to those you lost) but that post is so idiotic and one sided that its ridiculous.

If you had posted that it would have been much more clear.

  • 12.07.2012 8:46 AM PDT


Posted by: Raptorx7

Posted by: DarkBen64

Posted by: Raptorx7

Posted by: DarkBen64

Posted by: Prototype117
Also lets take a moment to remember the jews, and the innocent japanese that were killed because of you americans, oh and lets not forget the thousands in kokoda oh oh and the butchered soviets etc.


They all have days to remember them. Think of how stupid this post is...This day is for remembering American lives lost. I have also stated many times in this thread various reasons for all of these. Unfortunately no one has any idea what there talking about pertaining to history because they have only learned crap in school.

There is victory day in Moscow, there is a holocaust memorial day, and a day for everyone else.

How about you honor all of those people that you seem to care so much about by actually reading about the war and learning instead of spouting what you learned in 5 minutes in history class.
I lost a member of my extended family in Japan and 2 in Pearl Harbour. I think I know what I'm on about.


I think that's great(that you know what your talking about and my condolences to those you lost) but that post is so idiotic and one sided that its ridiculous.

If you had posted that it would have been much more clear.

I don't agree. I've seen numerous Americans who think that the US was clearly in the right and that Pearl Harbour was the worst thing to ever happen. I don't want to lump you in with that lot but guilty until proven innocent, I'm afraid.

  • 12.07.2012 8:47 AM PDT

"I will show you how a true Prussian officer fights!"

"And i will show you where the iron crosses grow..."

- "Cross of Iron"


Posted by: Murcielago00

Posted by: Raptorx7


That isnt true. They didn't attack without warning them government. The government was autocratic and run by the military. They all decided to attack Pearl harbor and even had there diplomat speaking to our government as they attacked Pearl harbor...
Source?
I scoured my sources and can't seem to find anything to back up my claim that they attacked without the government's knowledge, so you may be correct with that. Although, the Japanese Navy did have a history of going against direct orders (but it was during WWI).


"The Storm of War: A New History of the Second World War"

By Andrew Roberts

"If the Allies had Fallen"

By Multiple historians

These are books so i would have to dig up the pages, but you get the point.

There are a few more i can get if i go look for them if you want, they are all great reads and i recommend greatly "The Storm of War" if you want to learn a great deal about World War 2 as a whole.

  • 12.07.2012 8:48 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:


Posted by: Raptorx7

Posted by: Murcielago00
I never stated it was the sole reason. The reasons for the Japanese attacking the US are complex. And a quote from one of the sources I cited earlier...
For example, in 1934 when asked whether the Navy contemplated war with the UNited States Navy, Admiral Suetugu Nobumasa replied: "Certainly, even this is acceptable if it will get us a budget" (Barnhart, 1987, p.39)


That was from 1934...
Understood, but the rest of that source goes into further detail. The quote I provided was from the Introduction section of the source, which goes into more detail.

Peruse at your leisure. There is also a quote from 1939, essentially saying that although they were ready to use Britain and the US as " pretexts for budget, they did not actually want to confront them."

Complex reasons for their attack.

  • 12.07.2012 8:49 AM PDT

Didn't we Embargo Japan which drastically reduced their Oil and Steel supply?

Posted by: Raptorx7
That is not the sole reason, whatever you read is incorrect. They attacked for the resources and to knock out our fleet long enough for them to consolidate there new gains.

  • 12.07.2012 8:49 AM PDT

"I will show you how a true Prussian officer fights!"

"And i will show you where the iron crosses grow..."

- "Cross of Iron"


Posted by: DarkBen64

Posted by: Raptorx7

Posted by: Raptorx7

Posted by: DarkBen64

Posted by: Prototype117
Also lets take a moment to remember the jews, and the innocent japanese that were killed because of you americans, oh and lets not forget the thousands in kokoda oh oh and the butchered soviets etc.[/quote]


They all have days to remember them. Think of how stupid this post is...This day is for remembering American lives lost. I have also stated many times in this thread various reasons for all of these. Unfortunately no one has any idea what there talking about pertaining to history because they have only learned crap in school.

There is victory day in Moscow, there is a holocaust memorial day, and a day for everyone else.

How about you honor all of those people that you seem to care so much about by actually reading about the war and learning instead of spouting what you learned in 5 minutes in history class.
I lost a member of my extended family in Japan and 2 in Pearl Harbour. I think I know what I'm on about.


I think that's great(that you know what your talking about and my condolences to those you lost) but that post is so idiotic and one sided that its ridiculous.

If you had posted that it would have been much more clear.

I don't agree. I've seen numerous Americans who think that the US was clearly in the right and that Pearl Harbour was the worst thing to ever happen. I don't want to lump you in with that lot but guilty until proven innocent, I'm afraid.


We warned the civilians by pamphlet to leave there homes and to evacuate the area.

If we didn't bring the war to a close that way the casualty numbers for American and allied forces would have reached into the the hundreds of thousands (in the invasion of the Japanese mainland), and civilian casualty's in even greater numbers, it was a necessary evil that saved countless lives and ended a war.

That is my answer and i will stick to it. If you really think we were in the wrong that is of course your opinion.

  • 12.07.2012 8:50 AM PDT

"I will show you how a true Prussian officer fights!"

"And i will show you where the iron crosses grow..."

- "Cross of Iron"


Posted by: Gaara444
Didn't we Embargo Japan which drastically reduced their Oil and Steel supply?

Posted by: Raptorx7
That is not the sole reason, whatever you read is incorrect. They attacked for the resources and to knock out our fleet long enough for them to consolidate there new gains.


Yes we embargoed them because of there aggressive actions in China and some of the pacific rim (Pre WW2).

It crippled there oil supply especially.

  • 12.07.2012 8:51 AM PDT


Posted by: Raptorx7

Posted by: DarkBen64

Posted by: Raptorx7

Posted by: Raptorx7

Posted by: DarkBen64

[qute]Posted by: Prototype117
Also lets take a moment to remember the jews, and the innocent japanese that were killed because of you americans, oh and lets not forget the thousands in kokoda oh oh and the butchered soviets etc.[/quote][/quote]

They all have days to remember them. Think of how stupid this post is...This day is for remembering American lives lost. I have also stated many times in this thread various reasons for all of these. Unfortunately no one has any idea what there talking about pertaining to history because they have only learned crap in school.

There is victory day in Moscow, there is a holocaust memorial day, and a day for everyone else.

How about you honor all of those people that you seem to care so much about by actually reading about the war and learning instead of spouting what you learned in 5 minutes in history class.
I lost a member of my extended family in Japan and 2 in Pearl Harbour. I think I know what I'm on about.


I think that's great(that you know what your talking about and my condolences to those you lost) but that post is so idiotic and one sided that its ridiculous.

If you had posted that it would have been much more clear.

I don't agree. I've seen numerous Americans who think that the US was clearly in the right and that Pearl Harbour was the worst thing to ever happen. I don't want to lump you in with that lot but guilty until proven innocent, I'm afraid.


We warned the civilians by pamphlet to leave there homes and to evacuate the area.

If we didn't bring the war to a close that way the casualty numbers for American and allied forces would have reached into the the hundreds of thousands (in the invasion of the Japanese mainland), and civilian casualty's in even greater numbers, it was a necessary evil that saved countless lives and ended a war.

That is my answer and i will stick to it. If you really think we were in the wrong that is of course your opinion.

Yeah, it's real easy to evacuate major cities at the drop of the hat, especially when the attack may/may not happen since it could be propaganda with a weapon which previously has been experimental at best?

  • 12.07.2012 8:51 AM PDT

So, I don't wanna sound awkward here....but we kind of....instigated it....

Posted by: Raptorx7
Yes we embargoed them because of there aggressive actions in China and some of the pacific rim (Pre WW2).

It crippled there oil supply especially.

  • 12.07.2012 8:52 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:


Posted by: Raptorx7

Posted by: Murcielago00
Source?
I scoured my sources and can't seem to find anything to back up my claim that they attacked without the government's knowledge, so you may be correct with that. Although, the Japanese Navy did have a history of going against direct orders (but it was during WWI).


"The Storm of War: A New History of the Second World War"

By Andrew Roberts

"If the Allies had Fallen"

By Multiple historians

These are books so i would have to dig up the pages, but you get the point.

There are a few more i can get if i go look for them if you want, they are all great reads and i recommend greatly "The Storm of War" if you want to learn a great deal about World War 2 as a whole.

Thanks. I'll have to look into that when I can find the time. Seems both our sources have multiple historians, which just adds to the complexity of why they attacked Pearl Harbor.

Maybe we can both agree, that there was no one definitive reason for it?

  • 12.07.2012 8:53 AM PDT

"I will show you how a true Prussian officer fights!"

"And i will show you where the iron crosses grow..."

- "Cross of Iron"


Posted by: Gaara444
So, I don't wanna sound awkward here....but we kind of....instigated it....

Posted by: Raptorx7
Yes we embargoed them because of there aggressive actions in China and some of the pacific rim (Pre WW2).

It crippled there oil supply especially.


They instigated it (The embargo)with there wars and hostile actions (which is way more worse than what we did)...but technically yes...

  • 12.07.2012 8:54 AM PDT

"I will show you how a true Prussian officer fights!"

"And i will show you where the iron crosses grow..."

- "Cross of Iron"


Posted by: Murcielago00

Posted by: Raptorx7

Posted by: Murcielago00
Source?
I scoured my sources and can't seem to find anything to back up my claim that they attacked without the government's knowledge, so you may be correct with that. Although, the Japanese Navy did have a history of going against direct orders (but it was during WWI).


"The Storm of War: A New History of the Second World War"

By Andrew Roberts

"If the Allies had Fallen"

By Multiple historians

These are books so i would have to dig up the pages, but you get the point.

There are a few more i can get if i go look for them if you want, they are all great reads and i recommend greatly "The Storm of War" if you want to learn a great deal about World War 2 as a whole.

Thanks. I'll have to look into that when I can find the time. Seems both our sources have multiple historians, which just adds to the complexity of why they attacked Pearl Harbor.

Maybe we can both agree, that there was no one definitive reason for it?


Of course!

That is the unfortunate thing about history we will definitely never know the whole story, but it sure is fun to try and figure it out/learn about it!

  • 12.07.2012 8:55 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

America kill civilians because Japan killed soldiers... The nukes that were dropped where 1000x worse than an attack on a military base.

  • 12.07.2012 8:58 AM PDT

"I will show you how a true Prussian officer fights!"

"And i will show you where the iron crosses grow..."

- "Cross of Iron"


Posted by: Elfionnio11
America kill civilians because Japan killed soldiers... The nukes that were dropped where 1000x worse than an attack on a military base.


The Japanese murdered 15 million Chinese civilians and killed thousands of Filipino and other native islanders.

They also murdered POW's and worked them to death, yup Japan only killed soldiers.

Read through the thread please.

  • 12.07.2012 9:00 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:


Posted by: Raptorx7

Posted by: Murcielago00
Seems both our sources have multiple historians, which just adds to the complexity of why they attacked Pearl Harbor.

Maybe we can both agree, that there was no one definitive reason for it?


Of course!

That is the unfortunate thing about history we will definitely never know the whole story, but it sure is fun to try and figure it out/learn about it!
Agreed. And let us not forget this day, for the millions of lives it changed, for better or for worse.

  • 12.07.2012 9:04 AM PDT

I had an ancestor who was one of the 1,177 men killed when The Arizona exploded. Kinda gives me a personal relation to it.

  • 12.07.2012 9:07 AM PDT

TRU7H. CARNAGE. BUNGIE

And yesterday was Finland's independence day

  • 12.07.2012 9:11 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

My new account is enyad


Posted by: Sigma Seven
Posted by: DarkestSeptagon
71 years ago was an important event that left 2400 U.S soldiers dead and our naval fleet in ruins. This incident would lead to the intoduction of the U.S to World War II and the relocation of 100,000 Japanese U.S citizens to internment camps.

Take a moment to remember the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Discuss your thoughts on World War II and the Pacific War.


"Oh lets mourn the 2400 dead soldiers, boo hoo" Oh yeah, what about nagasaki and hiroshima? Is that less of a civilian death toll? less of an importance? You americans.

Pearl harbour: 2400 dead

Nagasaki: 60,000 to 80,000
Hiroshima: 90,000 to 166,000
Total: 150,000 to 246,000(maybe more)
Not to forget the radiation poisoning and cancer that ensued.

Learn something!

I hate americans like you that are so self absorbed.


But we dropped leaflets...

Can't say they weren't warned.

  • 12.07.2012 9:15 AM PDT