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Subject: What happened to skill gaps in multiplayer games?
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Posted by: mvyorkie009
there hasnt been any since halo 3...sadly D:
yorkie
To be honest, I don't even think any of the Halos were meant to be competitive. I think it was just luck (until reach) that it could be played like that and be fun.

Playing Halo 2 on Xlink at the moment :D. So many mexicans!

  • 12.08.2012 3:51 PM PDT

-blam!- Was that actually blammed out? Or did I just type it? You'll never know.

Posted by: ultratog1028
Not necessarily. If you are walking and a guy spawns and shoots you around a corner while you weren't looking, how is he skilled? How are you less skilled for not knowing who, when, and where a random spawn was going to occur? There is nothing you could do about that situation to stop from dying. Skill isn't involved there, that's chance.[/quote]Because he took advantage of his superior positioning and you failed to look around that corner and practice environmental awareness.

Posted by: swvjdirector
Not necessarily. Let's take Call of Duty, since it's getting tossed around a lot. Somebody comes around a corner and sees a guy. He wildly sprays with his weapon and hipfires. The other guy aims with his weapon and then fires. Sometimes hipfire wins out, sometimes it doesn't Depends on where the randomly placed shots go.
But the better player will know to [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_sFdZU85-4]aim down their sights
and will get the kill if they aim properly. Depending on the range and weapon used by the hip firer they may get the kill or not.

If they are a good player they will not have over-stepped their bounds with the hip firing and have known to only use hip-firing at its effective range. If they don't know enough when they should fire from the hip and when they should aim they will die because they'll be misusing it in all situations whereas the better player will be able to recognize when and where it is approproate to fire less accurately.

[Edited on 12.08.2012 3:56 PM PST]

  • 12.08.2012 3:51 PM PDT

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Posted by: Marinade
Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: Marinade
If these are the games that make money, that is what the people want.
That's assuming the majority have a specific taste, when in fact the majority of gamers (casual gamers) are more open to competitive games than you would think. What is the most played game in the world right now? League of Legends, part of what is considered not a noob friendly genre. Why is that?

I never said they all have a specific taste. I said if that's what people are buying, it must be what they want. That goes for any game.
It's all people are buying because no other options are being released.

  • 12.08.2012 3:52 PM PDT

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March 3, 2553

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  • 12.08.2012 3:52 PM PDT

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Posted by: dahuterschuter
Posted by: ultratog1028
Not necessarily. If you are walking and a guy spawns and shoots you around a corner while you weren't looking, how is he skilled? How are you less skilled for not knowing who, when, and where a random spawn was going to occur? There is nothing you could do about that situation to stop from dying. Skill isn't involved there, that's chance.
Because he took advantage of his superior positioning and you failed to look around that corner and practice environmental awareness.
So if he spawns behind you, and guns you down within a second of spawning, it's your fault for not seeing him there before he was actually there?

  • 12.08.2012 3:53 PM PDT
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PC master race.

  • 12.08.2012 3:54 PM PDT

Well, I've been economical with the truth.


Posted by: Suikoden
PC master race.

  • 12.08.2012 3:55 PM PDT

"What are we holding on to, Sam?"
"That there's some good in this world, and it's worth fighting for."


Posted by: dahuterschuter
Posted by: ultratog1028
Not necessarily. If you are walking and a guy spawns and shoots you around a corner while you weren't looking, how is he skilled? How are you less skilled for not knowing who, when, and where a random spawn was going to occur? There is nothing you could do about that situation to stop from dying. Skill isn't involved there, that's chance.[/quote]Because he took advantage of his superior positioning and you failed to look around that corner and practice environmental awareness.

Posted by: swvjdirector
Not necessarily. Let's take Call of Duty, since it's getting tossed around a lot. Somebody comes around a corner and sees a guy. He wildly sprays with his weapon and hipfires. The other guy aims with his weapon and then fires. Sometimes hipfire wins out, sometimes it doesn't Depends on where the randomly placed shots go.
But the better player will know to [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_sFdZU85-4]aim down their sights
and will get the kill if they aim properly. Depending on the range and weapon used by the hip firer they may get the kill or not.

If they are a good player they will not have over-stepped their bounds with the hip firing and have known to only use hip-firing at its effective range. If they don't know enough when they should fire from the hip and when they should aim they will die because they'll be misusing it in all situations whereas the better player will be able to recognize when and where it is approproate to fire less accurately.


A great deal of this has very little to do with my point: Hipfire will sometimes work and sometimes won't. Not because of player accuracy, but because bullets randomly spray all over the place. Basically, it takes things out of player control and puts things up to chance. What your saying is that players can use their best judgment to HELP, but it won't guarantee anything. There's no skill gap there; it's just a dice throw.

  • 12.08.2012 3:59 PM PDT
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Posted by: Suikoden
PC master race.

It's better, but there is still stupid randomness mechanics in many games. Like BF3, and how suppression makes your bullets deviate far from where you're aiming, making you miss shots even though you're aiming directly on a guy's head.

It's not really that annoying to me, but I was just pointing out that PC isn't immune to casualization.

  • 12.08.2012 4:03 PM PDT

-blam!- Was that actually blammed out? Or did I just type it? You'll never know.

Posted by: swvjdirector
A great deal of this has very little to do with my point: Hipfire will sometimes work and sometimes won't. Not because of player accuracy, but because bullets randomly spray all over the place. Basically, it takes things out of player control and puts things up to chance. What your saying is that players can use their best judgment to HELP, but it won't guarantee anything. There's no skill gap there; it's just a dice throw.
There is though. I explained that. You have a very good knowledge of exactly when hip-firing will and will not work based on the weapon you're using. It does create a skill gap, between players who have the experience to know how to appropriately employ the mechanics of the game and those who don't.

  • 12.08.2012 4:04 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: Marinade
I never said they all have a specific taste. I said if that's what people are buying, it must be what they want. That goes for any game.
You just tried to justify game developers casualizing games in order to appeal to casual gamers. The point the OP tried to make was competitive games can also appeal to casual gamers, and in some examples a competitive game can appeal more to a casual gamer than a casual game.

What was the point you were trying to make? It's obvious if people are buying something they like it (you don't even need to point that out), but what were the implications of your post? Casual gamers like what they buy, but does that point really mean anything? People like to imply that because casual gamers like casual games, it must also mean they don't like competitive games, which isn't true from my example.

If I were to guess, I'd say it's just easier to make a casual game rather than sit down and develop a deep and fulfilling competitive game. It doesn't have anything to do with casual tastes since those tastes can be applied to everything from a competitive to a casual game.

  • 12.08.2012 4:05 PM PDT

"What are we holding on to, Sam?"
"That there's some good in this world, and it's worth fighting for."


Posted by: dahuterschuter
Posted by: swvjdirector
A great deal of this has very little to do with my point: Hipfire will sometimes work and sometimes won't. Not because of player accuracy, but because bullets randomly spray all over the place. Basically, it takes things out of player control and puts things up to chance. What your saying is that players can use their best judgment to HELP, but it won't guarantee anything. There's no skill gap there; it's just a dice throw.
There is though. I explained that. You have a very good knowledge of exactly when hip-firing will and will not work based on the weapon you're using. It does create a skill gap, between players who have the experience to know how to appropriately employ the mechanics of the game and those who don't.


Again: Semantics. Experience doesn't actually affect where the bullets go, which is the whole problem. Sure, experience plays a major role in you positioning and movement, which means that you can learn, to an extent, where and when you'll be most effective with hipfire. That doesn't mean it'll change what happens when you pull the trigger. Random crap still happens, which basically totally removes the skill gap in positioning. It stops mattering, because stupid, uncontrollable things still happen.

  • 12.08.2012 4:15 PM PDT

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Posted by: swvjdirector

Posted by: Pahat Pojat
You are like over half a decade late, bro.


Eh, Halo 3 had a definite skill gap. So about half a decade, but even then I was holding out hope for a good, skill-based multiplayer game.

Halo 3 doesn't take any skill at all.

  • 12.08.2012 4:15 PM PDT

"What are we holding on to, Sam?"
"That there's some good in this world, and it's worth fighting for."


Posted by: Pahat Pojat

Posted by: swvjdirector

Posted by: Pahat Pojat
You are like over half a decade late, bro.


Eh, Halo 3 had a definite skill gap. So about half a decade, but even then I was holding out hope for a good, skill-based multiplayer game.

Halo 3 doesn't take any skill at all.


How so? Even games that I feel have very narrow skill gaps still take SOME skill. If Halo 3 took no skill, someone who's never played a video game could immediately run at MLG 50 high and carry their team every game.

  • 12.08.2012 4:18 PM PDT

Just the thought of a seriously competitive videogame is laughable and anyone who supports them is also laughable. Play a real sport or STFU about competition in videogames.

  • 12.08.2012 4:21 PM PDT

"What are we holding on to, Sam?"
"That there's some good in this world, and it's worth fighting for."


Posted by: CIint Beastwood
Just the thought of a seriously competitive videogame is laughable and anyone who supports them is also laughable. Play a real sport or STFU about competition in videogames.


I'm actually curious now; what do you find laughable about it? To be honest, it's not so different from chess or other mental sports.

  • 12.08.2012 4:25 PM PDT

ooga booga boooh

It's unfortunate really, OP.

I am not what I'd classify as a serious gamer, but I think there needs to be a gap of some sort or another in most online games. It's like why in a workplace we have gradations, or in any social element we have the "leader" and the "followers". There are grades that need to be recognized, etc.

Games like Halo for example needed it. And by need I mean they still need.

  • 12.08.2012 4:26 PM PDT

My legit Killtrocity

Camping like a 'mouth breather'
If Fed Ex and UPS merged into one company, would it be called Fed Up?

I don't want to start another account for a digital number that has no true value in ten years.

That's why I lobby for Halo 2/3 format for multiplayer, everyone start the game as equal. Power weapons and such are up for grabs.

  • 12.08.2012 4:27 PM PDT

-blam!- Was that actually blammed out? Or did I just type it? You'll never know.

Posted by: swvjdirector
Again: Semantics.
That has nothing to do with semantics. Experience doesn't actually affect where the bullets go, which is the whole problem.Nor should it. And that's not a problem. Sure, experience plays a major role in you positioning and movement, which means that you can learn, to an extent, where and when you'll be most effective with hipfire. That doesn't mean it'll change what happens when you pull the trigger.It does, in fact it changes the most important part of the game, whether or not you've used your tool effectively. Random crap still happens, which basically totally removes the skill gap in positioning. It stops mattering, because stupid, uncontrollable things still happen.It's not stupid or uncontrollable, the accuracy of your weapon is always in your control.

You're trying to say the random placement of bullets from firing from the hip is detrimental to some sort of skill. It isn't. Skill is being able to employ and account for every mechanic of the game, which includes the "random," distribution of shots when hip-firing. You're looking through such a narrow glass that you can't see anything outside of this one thing you've decided is broken, and because of that you can't see why it isn't. It doesn't ruin any sort of skill gap to have that inaccuracy in hip-firing, because the skill comes in managing that.

Think of the Halo: CE AR. The bullets will always draw out their inaccurate pattern within the targeting reticle of the AR. If you upsize that targeting reticle to half the screen, that's what hip-firing in CoD is.

  • 12.08.2012 4:28 PM PDT

"What are we holding on to, Sam?"
"That there's some good in this world, and it's worth fighting for."


Posted by: jacob crawford
It's unfortunate really, OP.

I am not what I'd classify as a serious gamer, but I think there needs to be a gap of some sort or another in most online games. It's like why in a workplace we have gradations, or in any social element we have the "leader" and the "followers". There are grades that need to be recognized, etc.

Games like Halo for example needed it. And by need I mean they still need.


I'm glad to hear that even non-competitive gamers agree with me! Regardless of how seriously you take online gaming, there should be a clear division between good players and bad ones,and excellent players and good ones, and godly players and excellent ones. It's what makes multiplayer interesting.

  • 12.08.2012 4:29 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: dahuterschuter
Look at Halo Reach's bloom. It was a bad mechanic that because its optimal firing rate was with 50% accuracy it essentially encouraged 1v1 battles (ceteris paribus) to be a dice throw. That's bad game design and player experience can not make up for it.

  • 12.08.2012 4:36 PM PDT

"What are we holding on to, Sam?"
"That there's some good in this world, and it's worth fighting for."


Posted by: dahuterschuter
Posted by: swvjdirector
Again: Semantics.
That has nothing to do with semantics. Experience doesn't actually affect where the bullets go, which is the whole problem.Nor should it. And that's not a problem. Sure, experience plays a major role in you positioning and movement, which means that you can learn, to an extent, where and when you'll be most effective with hipfire. That doesn't mean it'll change what happens when you pull the trigger.It does, in fact it changes the most important part of the game, whether or not you've used your tool effectively. Random crap still happens, which basically totally removes the skill gap in positioning. It stops mattering, because stupid, uncontrollable things still happen.It's not stupid or uncontrollable, the accuracy of your weapon is always in your control.

You're trying to say the random placement of bullets from firing from the hip is detrimental to some sort of skill. It isn't. Skill is being able to employ and account for every mechanic of the game, which includes the "random," distribution of shots when hip-firing. You're looking through such a narrow glass that you can't see anything outside of this one thing you've decided is broken, and because of that you can't see why it isn't. It doesn't ruin any sort of skill gap to have that inaccuracy in hip-firing, because the skill comes in managing that.

Think of the Halo: CE AR. The bullets will always draw out their inaccurate pattern within the targeting reticle of the AR. If you upsize that targeting reticle to half the screen, that's what hip-firing in CoD is.


I'm actually astonished that you're so interested in defending this mechanic. It's very similar to bloom, except bloom at least has a basis in the idea of creating a balance between speed and accuracy. However, we all know how the implementation of bloom tends to turn out. But since you don't seem to grasp the problem here, let me point it out:

First off, it's absolutely true that knowledge of a game's mechanics and the ability to use them to the best of our ability is skill. What's NOT true is that the random bullet distribution is an extension of said skill. It's the same problem with the random spread on the BR in Halo 3, which any veteran will tell you is annoying and unnecessary. The problem is that, after all the positioning, determining effective ranges, and so forth, the weapon basically rolls dice: Will it randomly decide that bullets connect, or won't it? So, in a situation where 1 bullet is the difference between a kill and a death, it becomes totally random. Sometimes the person aiming down their sights will get the kill, and sometimes a random bullet will connect based on chance. That isn't skill! That's basically a bunch of precursor skill followed by a dice roll. Sure, it might not be game-breaking on its own, but it's frustrating for someone who gets cheated out of a kill by a random, inconsistent system.

  • 12.08.2012 4:36 PM PDT


Posted by: OdorousLicense3
Because CoD.

/thread
League play has a huge skill gap. Go play and get gold or higher.

  • 12.08.2012 4:37 PM PDT
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Bring back lean-walking and prefiring to military shooters!

Can't wait for Takedown and Ground Branch.

  • 12.08.2012 4:42 PM PDT
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Games like that exist. Modern ones, no less. The following just isn't as large as it used to be.

Examples of such competitive, skillful modern games includes Counter Strike: GO, Tribes: Ascend, Dota 2, the Assassin's Creed games (usually, when someone just doesn't go around with the arm gun), etc.

  • 12.08.2012 4:45 PM PDT

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