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Subject: Your thoughts on reality..

-blam!- Was that actually blammed out? Or did I just type it? You'll never know.

Posted by: eggsalad
Wouldn't you say that if there were nothing before existence there would be nothing to cause existence? How would existence begin without having already existed?
The famous response to this question, explaining it far better than I could ever hope to.

If existence was eternal, how did it reach this point? That is an infinitely stretching amount of time for it to reach this point, meaning it never would.That is to look at it as if this point were a given, or an objective. Instead this point in time is exactly what it is, one point on a line which extends infinitely in two directions. There can absolutely still be progression across this line, it is infinite progression.

  • 12.08.2012 10:41 PM PDT


Posted by: dahuterschuter
Posted by: Defogner
The fact we know our universe begins and ends,
That's not a fact.

yet at the same time know something can't come from nothing.That's also not a fact.

The reason you're coming up with a paradox is because you're assuming that two contradictory propositions are true rather than taking the logical approach and acknowledging the mutual exclusivity of it. If one is true then the other cannot be, so it is illogical to accept both as truth. It's the law of non-contradiction.

Truth is something the human mind creates. Math and how we tie things together are small truths, they work for us, but might not be completely true in the underlinings of everything. We were born and created by this universe so its natural its "sense" would be our "sense" aswell. You claim the universe is completely logical when for all we know it might not be.

[Edited on 12.08.2012 10:43 PM PST]

  • 12.08.2012 10:42 PM PDT

-blam!- Was that actually blammed out? Or did I just type it? You'll never know.

Posted by: CLegg2
No, how about you explain how its logical?
Because in a discussion when you make a claim, like something being illogical, it is on you to support that claim. It isn't on the opposite party to say why your claim isn't true, because they don't need to if you've given no support for why it is true.

Posted by: Defogner
Truth is something the human mind creates.
And what evidence do you have to support this?

[Edited on 12.08.2012 10:45 PM PST]

  • 12.08.2012 10:43 PM PDT

Gather around the campfire, once it goes out, it's out for good.


Posted by: dahuterschuter
Posted by: eggsalad
Wouldn't you say that if there were nothing before existence there would be nothing to cause existence? How would existence begin without having already existed?
The famous response to this question, explaining it far better than I could ever hope to.

If existence was eternal, how did it reach this point? That is an infinitely stretching amount of time for it to reach this point, meaning it never would.That is to look at it as if this point were a given, or an objective. Instead this point in time is exactly what it is, one point on a line which extends infinitely in two directions. There can absolutely still be progression across this line, it is infinite progression.
I remember watching this a year or so ago, maybe I should refresh, but for now, I'm going to go off what I remember. Wasn't that video an explanation of the origin of the cosmos, not existence itself? I mean, weren't there some form of phantom quantum materials involved, if so, those would be included in existence.

Maybe I'm just too stupid to grasp it, but without origin how does something reach a certain point? They would be required to have been there the entire time otherwise they could not reach it.

  • 12.08.2012 10:46 PM PDT


Posted by: dahuterschuter
Posted by: CLegg2
No, how about you explain how its logical?
Because in a discussion when you make a claim, like something being illogical, it is on you to support that claim. It isn't on the opposite party to say why your claim isn't true, because they don't need to if you've given no support for why it is true.

Posted by: Defogner
Truth is something the human mind creates.
And what evidence do you have to support this?


Yet you avoid form answering my questions. You seem to have these answers without any basis at all. Which makes you a hypocrite.

  • 12.08.2012 10:47 PM PDT

-blam!- Was that actually blammed out? Or did I just type it? You'll never know.

Posted by: CLegg2
Yet you avoid form answering my questions. You seem to have these answers without any basis at all. Which makes you a hypocrite.
I answered your question plain as day.

  • 12.08.2012 10:47 PM PDT

What do you mean evidence, if no intelligent life was around would there still be theorys laws and all this supposed "truth" we as human being use to tie up everything and try to simplify the universe? No, there wouldnt, things would just exist based on whats actually happening as they are right now, and not what we try to understand is happening.

[Edited on 12.08.2012 10:49 PM PST]

  • 12.08.2012 10:48 PM PDT

Gather around the campfire, once it goes out, it's out for good.


Posted by: Defogner
Truth is something the human mind creates.
Humans can only interpret reality, they have absolutely no control over what it actually is.

  • 12.08.2012 10:48 PM PDT

Gather around the campfire, once it goes out, it's out for good.


Posted by: Defogner
What do you mean evidence, if no intelligent life was around would there still be theorys laws and all this supposed "truth" we as human being use to tie up everything and try to simplify the universe? No, there wouldnt, things would just exist based on whats actually happening, and not what we try to understand is happening.
No law or theory in all of science is proposed to be the truth.

  • 12.08.2012 10:49 PM PDT


Posted by: dahuterschuter
Posted by: CLegg2
Yet you avoid form answering my questions. You seem to have these answers without any basis at all. Which makes you a hypocrite.
I answered your question plain as day.


No you haven't? You gave me one answer with no basis and when I asked for further detail you avoided doing so..

  • 12.08.2012 10:50 PM PDT
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So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.

-Gandalf

It's boring and unfun.

  • 12.08.2012 10:51 PM PDT

Watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfTAPN_3q4Q

PERCEPTION MAN




I didn't read the OP fyi

  • 12.08.2012 10:52 PM PDT

-blam!- Was that actually blammed out? Or did I just type it? You'll never know.

Posted by: Defogner
What do you mean evidence, if no intelligent life was around would there still be theorys laws and all this supposed "truth" we as human being use to tie up everything and try to simplify the universe? No, there wouldnt, things would just exist based on whats actually happening, and not what we try to understand is happening.
Yes, there would. Objective fact and truth exists independent of human ability to perceive it. One is not one because humans say so, one is an objective value. Likewise, the processes by which humans came to be, the laws and theories, had to have existed long prior to human ability to comprehend them in order for humans to exist at all.

Posted by: CLegg2
No you haven't? You gave me one answer with no basis and when I asked for further detail you avoided doing so..
You asked, how 'bout I explain why it is logical. I then answered that question. The others were already answered in the thread at the top of this page.

  • 12.08.2012 10:53 PM PDT


Thats kind of what i was trying to say, these rules would exist with or without us, but these laws as we comprehend them could never be spot on. It just works for us, in no way does that mean anything we can percieve is truly how it works.

[Edited on 12.08.2012 11:00 PM PST]

  • 12.08.2012 10:59 PM PDT
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#swag

I enjoy living here. Others should join.

  • 12.08.2012 11:00 PM PDT

-blam!- Was that actually blammed out? Or did I just type it? You'll never know.

Posted by: Defogner
Thats kind of what i was trying to say, these rules would exist with or without us, but these laws as we comprehend them could never be spot on. It just works for us, in no way does that mean anything we can percieve is truly how it works.
Absolutely, the laws we create are based on interpretation of these objective truths. Our ability to understand and employ these truths is much better than its being given credit for though. We manage to create a very reliable model of reality based on these things. So while we still don't fully understand gravity, we know that gravity is a reality and we understand a lot of the mechanics of it.

  • 12.08.2012 11:03 PM PDT

Gather around the campfire, once it goes out, it's out for good.


Posted by: dahuterschuter
we know that gravity is a reality
Actually we would not.

  • 12.08.2012 11:07 PM PDT

-blam!- Was that actually blammed out? Or did I just type it? You'll never know.

Posted by: eggsalad
Posted by: dahuterschuter
we know that gravity is a reality
Actually we would not.
Go on.

  • 12.08.2012 11:12 PM PDT


Posted by: dahuterschuter
Posted by: Defogner
Thats kind of what i was trying to say, these rules would exist with or without us, but these laws as we comprehend them could never be spot on. It just works for us, in no way does that mean anything we can percieve is truly how it works.
Absolutely, the laws we create are based on interpretation of these objective truths. Our ability to understand and employ these truths is much better than its being given credit for though. We manage to create a very reliable model of reality based on these things. So while we still don't fully understand gravity, we know that gravity is a reality and we understand a lot of the mechanics of it.

So because this is possible, isnt it also possible another univese that does not follow our rules exists. If there is a reality with our rules yet we dont fully comprehend how they make sense couldn't it be possible the stuff that does make sense only does because we are born of this universe? Heres what i think, our universe is one with a beginning and a end, but we are part of another universe that does not have the same rules as ours, allowing us to exist the way we do. It's probably completely wrong, along with probably all other theorys, but as a human i dont think we will ever understand how something like the universe works. I get a feeling in the future after alot of work we will feel very defeated and stupid for even wasting our time trying to understand it and not just using our time more wisely living in it.

[Edited on 12.08.2012 11:15 PM PST]

  • 12.08.2012 11:13 PM PDT

Gather around the campfire, once it goes out, it's out for good.


Posted by: dahuterschuter
Posted by: eggsalad
Posted by: dahuterschuter
we know that gravity is a reality
Actually we would not.
Go on.
Well that would imply we are certain that what we interpret from reality is true.

The only thing I believe we may be certain of, is the fact that there is a truth to be misrepresented.

  • 12.08.2012 11:14 PM PDT

-blam!- Was that actually blammed out? Or did I just type it? You'll never know.

Posted by: eggsalad
Well that would imply we are certain that what we interpret from reality is true.
That's right, because it is demonstrable and gleaned from objective truths. That is the best grounds for certainty there is.

Posted by: Defogner
So because this is possible, isnt it also possible another univese that does not follow our rules exists.
It's possible, but nothing about what I just said necessitates or even implies that. That would also have to assume the other universe exists in some alternate reality.

  • 12.08.2012 11:18 PM PDT

dont like my driving? stay off the sidewalk

what do i think of reality? WHAT DO I THINK OF REALITY?!


reality is a lie...

you are not how many friends you have on facebook.
you are not how many subscribers you have on youtube.
you are wasting your life away chasing cars, clothes and fancy technology that corporate giants cleverly fool you into paying too much for.
you think your important but will anyone remember you after you're dead and gone?
you have one life to live
and its slowly ending
one second at a time

now what are you going to do about it?

  • 12.08.2012 11:20 PM PDT

Gather around the campfire, once it goes out, it's out for good.


Posted by: dahuterschuter
Posted by: eggsalad
Well that would imply we are certain that what we interpret from reality is true.
That's right, because it is demonstrable and gleaned from objective truths. That is the best grounds for certainty there is.
what huh

You did not just dismiss fallibility when discussing reality. We have knowledge of what's true, we cannot in anyway claim that it is so.

  • 12.08.2012 11:22 PM PDT

It's going and it sucks

  • 12.08.2012 11:22 PM PDT

-blam!- Was that actually blammed out? Or did I just type it? You'll never know.

Posted by: eggsalad
You did not just dismiss fallibility when discussing reality.
That's right.

  • 12.08.2012 11:22 PM PDT

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