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  • Subject: Should Pregnant Women who drink/do drugs go to jail for child abuse?
Subject: Should Pregnant Women who drink/do drugs go to jail for child abuse?

**Devil's advocate of the Flood. My posts may or may not represent my personal opinion, I just enjoy disagreeing with people. None of my posts are representative of the official view of the Navy or any government agency.

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Posted by: Methew
Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
Do you not see the problem with being outraged that a mother is potentially harming her child by drinking alcohol during pregnancy, but not being outraged by a mother that is harming her unborn child by killing it?

The outrage comes from the fact that the mother is going to birth the child damaged by drugs and alcohol.


Yes I believe that's been established.

  • 12.12.2012 6:12 PM PDT
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I find that Teh-Ziod is NOT attractive for the reasons
she/he does not correct format sentences, therefore for intelligent matured members of society that may interact with her/him, may find her/him UNattractive for the reason that she/he does not comprehend with their level to successfully have a conversation therefore it will be socially an awkward interaction which may be wanted to be avoided

second i do not find it physically possible for a PERSON to be a ice cream truck.

Posted by: DarkJet7
When having an abortion, the parents DO NOT want the fetus, the fetus will never be born, the fetus will never be "human"

When drinking/doing drugs while pregnant with a baby that the parents ACTUALLY WANT, that fetus will one day be born, and will have to live with the consequences of the mother's actions.
So, that gives them the right to terminate the fetus's life? Because it is never going to ever be "human?" The point of it all is, at the time of them being a fetus, they are not considered a person, as such, abortion is allowed. If it isn't considered murder to abort a fetus, why should drinking/doing drugs be considered child abuse? You can go on and on about how they'll have to live with the consequences of the mother's actions, but that is doing nothing more then beating around the bush. As a fetus, they aren't seen as a person, so they are endanger of being aborted, which also means they should also be endanger of mothers that abuse drugs while pregnant. Pick a side, is the bodily anatomy of the mother the main concern or is the well-being of the fetus the main concern?

  • 12.12.2012 6:12 PM PDT

**Devil's advocate of the Flood. My posts may or may not represent my personal opinion, I just enjoy disagreeing with people. None of my posts are representative of the official view of the Navy or any government agency.

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Not trying to bump the thread, but I believe this deserves a response.

Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
The fact is that fetuses are a genetically unique human being, totally separate from the mother in that sense. I think it's awfully arrogant of humanity to put boundaries on which humans are people, as if those are no longer synonymous. It seems horribly barbaric, like societies that still use slavery or consider women to be sub-human. The disturbing thing about that is, what if those people that don't consider humans to be "people" until birth or viability are wrong? Well, then we'd have to face that fact that as a planet of a conglomeration of "civilized" nations, we've committed a mass genocide that succeeds the works of the most reviled figures of the 1900's.


  • 12.12.2012 6:13 PM PDT

The world is not beautiful: And that, in a way, lends it a sort of beauty.

~Kino's Journey

Because they don't want it? Because they can't handle it? Because it's just not the right time? there's so many different reasons why someone would want an abortion.

And I'm not saying it's child abuse, OP's title is missleading.

  • 12.12.2012 6:14 PM PDT
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Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
Yes I believe that's been established.

That's why I can not be outraged by a mother harming her unborn child by killing it and be outraged by one damaging it with alcohol. The child that is aborted isn't a child. When it's aborted it's a clump of cells.

  • 12.12.2012 6:14 PM PDT

**Devil's advocate of the Flood. My posts may or may not represent my personal opinion, I just enjoy disagreeing with people. None of my posts are representative of the official view of the Navy or any government agency.

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Posted by: DarkJet7
Because they don't want it? Because they can't handle it? Because it's just not the right time? there's so many different reasons why someone would want an abortion.


Why on Earth should the inconvenience of pregnancy and raising a child justify its death?

Posted by: Methew
When it's aborted it's a clump of cells.
I'm also a clump of cells. Fundamentally it comes down to the fact that people do not consider unborn fetuses to be people, despite the fact that they are human from conception. I have yet to see a compelling justification for that sentiment.

[Edited on 12.12.2012 6:17 PM PST]

  • 12.12.2012 6:15 PM PDT
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Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
Not trying to bump the thread, but I believe this deserves a response.

Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
The fact is that fetuses are a genetically unique human being, totally separate from the mother in that sense. I think it's awfully arrogant of humanity to put boundaries on which humans are people, as if those are no longer synonymous. It seems horribly barbaric, like societies that still use slavery or consider women to be sub-human. The disturbing thing about that is, what if those people that don't consider humans to be "people" until birth or viability are wrong? Well, then we'd have to face that fact that as a planet of a conglomeration of "civilized" nations, we've committed a mass genocide that succeeds the works of the most reviled figures of the 1900's.



I can live with myself.

Because our intent is different from those reviled figures. What we are doing now we are doing with the knowledge we have and for the good of someone else right now.

  • 12.12.2012 6:17 PM PDT

**Devil's advocate of the Flood. My posts may or may not represent my personal opinion, I just enjoy disagreeing with people. None of my posts are representative of the official view of the Navy or any government agency.

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Posted by: Methew

Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
Not trying to bump the thread, but I believe this deserves a response.

Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
The fact is that fetuses are a genetically unique human being, totally separate from the mother in that sense. I think it's awfully arrogant of humanity to put boundaries on which humans are people, as if those are no longer synonymous. It seems horribly barbaric, like societies that still use slavery or consider women to be sub-human. The disturbing thing about that is, what if those people that don't consider humans to be "people" until birth or viability are wrong? Well, then we'd have to face that fact that as a planet of a conglomeration of "civilized" nations, we've committed a mass genocide that succeeds the works of the most reviled figures of the 1900's.



I can live with myself.

Because our intent is different from those reviled figures. What we are doing now we are doing with the knowledge we have and for the good of someone else right now.


Okay, Hitler had good intentions as well. He was attempting to make humanity genetically superior. I fail to see how intent justifies the act in this scenario.

  • 12.12.2012 6:18 PM PDT

They should really think "If I am always high on drugs and drunk on alcohol then maybe I shouldn't have a child" But these things affect your judgement and thinking so yeah

  • 12.12.2012 6:20 PM PDT

The world is not beautiful: And that, in a way, lends it a sort of beauty.

~Kino's Journey


Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey

Posted by: DarkJet7
Because they don't want it? Because they can't handle it? Because it's just not the right time? there's so many different reasons why someone would want an abortion.


Why on Earth should the inconvenience of pregnancy and raising a child justify its death?
If the parents can't handle it then it can very easily lead to an unstable family and problems for the child, i'm sure everyone would agree that a financially stable environment with two loving parents is far more beneficial to a child than drop out single teenage mother mother.

That's the thing that really annoys me about these kinds of threads, people argue against abortion and the like, as if they're trying to save the children, when they're really just putting the child in a worse situation (because they ALWAYS forget about the child after it's born(which is what this thread is about)).

  • 12.12.2012 6:31 PM PDT
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Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
Okay, Hitler had good intentions as well. He was attempting to make humanity genetically superior. I fail to see how intent justifies the act in this scenario.

There's a difference between trying to clean up the human race and terminating a -blam!- baby. (Can I bypass the filter to say the word Mods? It's rhymes with ape.)

Even then. Hitler knew he was killing people. We don't know exactly when a human being starts to be a human being.

Thread's probably gonna Godwin itself now.

[Edited on 12.12.2012 6:34 PM PST]

  • 12.12.2012 6:31 PM PDT

**Devil's advocate of the Flood. My posts may or may not represent my personal opinion, I just enjoy disagreeing with people. None of my posts are representative of the official view of the Navy or any government agency.

Non Sibi Sed Patriae
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Posted by: Methew
Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
Okay, Hitler had good intentions as well. He was attempting to make humanity genetically superior. I fail to see how intent justifies the act in this scenario.

There's a difference between trying to clean up the human race and terminating a -blam!- baby. (Can I bypass the filter to say the word Mods? It's rhymes with ape.)

Even then. Hitler knew he was killing people. We don't know exactly when a human being starts to be a human being.

Thread's probably gonna Godwin itself now.


The thing is, we know exactly when a fetus becomes a human. A fetus is a human from conception. The idea of asking a mother who was raped to deliver the baby sounds cruel, but the cruelty lies in the crime itself, and convenience is a poor excuse to end a human life. Not to mention that particular situation only accounts for 1% of all abortions. The truth is that abortion is an act of convenience; the mother either doesn't want to have a child or is unprepared (emotionally, financially, etc). I can't fathom how either of those reasons are valid excuses to end a human life.

Posted by: DarkJet7
If the parents can't handle it then it can very easily lead to an unstable family and problems for the child, i'm sure everyone would agree that a financially stable environment with two loving parents is far more beneficial to a child than drop out single teenage mother mother.

That's the thing that really annoys me about these kinds of threads, people argue against abortion and the like, as if they're trying to save the children, when they're really just putting the child in a worse situation (because they ALWAYS forget about the child after it's born(which is what this thread is about)).
That's completely asinine. You're suggesting that they would somehow be better of dead than be poor or have a potentially bad family. That is certainly nobody's choice to make but the person himself/herself, and I believe we'd all be against suicide here.

[Edited on 12.12.2012 6:46 PM PST]

  • 12.12.2012 6:42 PM PDT

The world is not beautiful: And that, in a way, lends it a sort of beauty.

~Kino's Journey

I'm going out for a bit, if i don't respond to you then that's why.
Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
Posted by: DarkJet7
If the parents can't handle it then it can very easily lead to an unstable family and problems for the child, i'm sure everyone would agree that a financially stable environment with two loving parents is far more beneficial to a child than drop out single teenage mother mother.

That's the thing that really annoys me about these kinds of threads, people argue against abortion and the like, as if they're trying to save the children, when they're really just putting the child in a worse situation (because they ALWAYS forget about the child after it's born(which is what this thread is about)).
That's completely asinine. You're suggesting that they would somehow be better of dead than be poor or have a potentially bad family. That is certainly nobody's choice to make but the person himself/herself, and I believe we'd all be against suicide here.
It's not asinine and that's exactly what i'm saying, i don't know anyone who would want to be born into a poor and broken family, hell, we already have enough of those in the world, why do you want to make more?

And under certain circumstances, i would be for suicide(terminal illness for example).

[Edited on 12.12.2012 6:56 PM PST]

  • 12.12.2012 6:50 PM PDT

**Devil's advocate of the Flood. My posts may or may not represent my personal opinion, I just enjoy disagreeing with people. None of my posts are representative of the official view of the Navy or any government agency.

Non Sibi Sed Patriae
Homework questions? Forget the Flood, join The Academy.
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Of course nobody wants to be born into a poor or broken family. That doesn't mean they don't want to be born. And why the hell should the mother get to decide whether the child should have that opportunity to define his/her own life?

[Edited on 12.12.2012 7:00 PM PST]

  • 12.12.2012 6:57 PM PDT