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  • Subject: Battlefield 3 - A Dumb Door's early perspective
Subject: Battlefield 3 - A Dumb Door's early perspective

Signatures are for little kids.

Just play Halo 4 dude, it's WAAAY better.

  • 12.24.2012 10:32 PM PDT

Posted by: Godshatter
Just play Halo 4 dude, it's WAAAY better.
Already done.

  • 12.24.2012 10:33 PM PDT

http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=39477223

Yep, campaign had too many things trying to make it all "cinematic" like. Too many QTEs, not the fun kind either. Not really horrible but nothing special. Multiplayer was alright, vehicles were a bit too painful to use and combat. I don't like unlock systems for vehicles.

All in all, seemed too COD-like for me.

  • 12.24.2012 10:35 PM PDT
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Who in the holy mother of gravy are the PLR? A little tidbit of info about who I'm fighting would be nice. Now let's pretend that I'm not a gun nut. Can this game at LEAST give a small bit of information about how to use the guns properly? A tutorial on the various weapons, vehicles, heck, even the flippin' CONTROLS would have been nice. Instead, we're thrust into this world full of tons of things that I have no idea what they are with no idea what I'm doing, being given a couple of instructions here and there without knowledge of how to execute them. This is not how you bring a new player into your experience. It says who the PLR are at the beginning of the game. Play it again and pay attention. Small bit of info on how to use the guns properly? This isn't rocket science. You press the trigger and bullets come out. You press the reload button to reload. That is literally all you need to know. Crazy huh? Different guns shoot differently. That is something that I sure hope never gets spoonfed.

And honestly, you couldn't figure out the controls? You're playing on a PS3 controller, it's not like theres that many different controls to get confused by. And if you really needed them listed, then simply open up options and look at the controls. I seriously can't believe this game is giving you this much trouble. And then you complain for a paragraph on how you pressed the wrong QTE? Seriously, how are you even able to play anything more complex then angrybirds if you're having trouble with BF3.

  • 12.24.2012 10:53 PM PDT

Posted by: Xvise66
Who in the holy mother of gravy are the PLR? A little tidbit of info about who I'm fighting would be nice. Now let's pretend that I'm not a gun nut. Can this game at LEAST give a small bit of information about how to use the guns properly? A tutorial on the various weapons, vehicles, heck, even the flippin' CONTROLS would have been nice. Instead, we're thrust into this world full of tons of things that I have no idea what they are with no idea what I'm doing, being given a couple of instructions here and there without knowledge of how to execute them. This is not how you bring a new player into your experience. It says who the PLR are at the beginning of the game. Play it again and pay attention. Small bit of info on how to use the guns properly? This isn't rocket science. You press the trigger and bullets come out. You press the reload button to reload. That is literally all you need to know. Crazy huh? Different guns shoot differently. That is something that I sure hope never gets spoonfed.

And honestly, you couldn't figure out the controls? You're playing on a PS3 controller, it's not like theres that many different controls to get confused by. And if you really needed them listed, then simply open up options and look at the controls. I seriously can't believe this game is giving you this much trouble. And then you complain for a paragraph on how you pressed the wrong QTE? Seriously, how are you even able to play anything more complex then angrybirds if you're having trouble with BF3.
Changing firing modes, turning flashlights on and off, different sights to use, etc. are all aspects of the guns that I never got any sort of training on.

Also, I don't play the PS3 much. I am a PC gamer, and a bit of a 360 gamer. I was looking forward to a tutorial teaching me the basics so that I could get acclimated to use a PS3 controller. Lo and behold, I'm thrust into scenarios which are not conducive for learning.

QTE's in that game in general are just a complaint, but I mostly skipped over that factor. The reason I was complaining about this was SPECIFICALLY because what seemed like such an obvious solution was hidden behind a strange mechanic that shouldn't have been so arbitrarily shoehorned in.

[Edited on 12.24.2012 11:02 PM PST]

  • 12.24.2012 11:01 PM PDT
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Posted by: A Dumb Door
Changing firing modes, turning flashlights on and off, different sights to use, etc. are all aspects of the guns that I never got any sort of training on.

Also, I don't play the PS3 much. I am a PC gamer, and a bit of a 360 gamer. I was looking forward to a tutorial teaching me the basics so that I could get acclimated to use a PS3 controller. Lo and behold, I'm thrust into scenarios which are not conducive for learning.

QTE's in that game in general are just a complaint, but I mostly skipped over that factor. The reason I was complaining about this was SPECIFICALLY because what seemed like such an obvious solution was hidden behind a strange mechanic that shouldn't have been so arbitrarily shoehorned in.
If you had spent two minutes looking in the options at the controller layout, all of this would be nonissues. Since you don't get too choose which sight to use in the campaign, it would be kind of pointless to send you through a tutorial on every single sight. Not to mention it would be tiresome to anyone who can just realize that all scopes essentially do is change the zoom.

No excuse for being a mainly PC gamer. There's at most, like 16 buttons on a ps3 controller, how hard is it too press each one of those one time to see what would happen? The only basics that are essential are aiming down sight, and shooting, if you can't figure that out on your own, well, lets just say that's pretty pathetic. Honestly, I can't understand how you had this much trouble with this game.

  • 12.24.2012 11:09 PM PDT
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Is this your first post-2007 shooter? Stop complaining when you're bad at a game in a genre you're not familiar with. That's like going into another country and complaining that the culture is weird.

  • 12.24.2012 11:12 PM PDT
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Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
A real test of a man is if he is willing to scrape a sharpened razor up and down his junk just to please a woman.


Posted by: cameo_cream
They did explain who the PLR by the way, you've got to pay attention.
I'm guessing this explanation was incredibly convoluted, vauge, short and only brought up once?

  • 12.24.2012 11:14 PM PDT

Posted by: Xvise66
Posted by: A Dumb Door
Changing firing modes, turning flashlights on and off, different sights to use, etc. are all aspects of the guns that I never got any sort of training on.

Also, I don't play the PS3 much. I am a PC gamer, and a bit of a 360 gamer. I was looking forward to a tutorial teaching me the basics so that I could get acclimated to use a PS3 controller. Lo and behold, I'm thrust into scenarios which are not conducive for learning.

QTE's in that game in general are just a complaint, but I mostly skipped over that factor. The reason I was complaining about this was SPECIFICALLY because what seemed like such an obvious solution was hidden behind a strange mechanic that shouldn't have been so arbitrarily shoehorned in.
If you had spent two minutes looking in the options at the controller layout, all of this would be nonissues. Since you don't get too choose which sight to use in the campaign, it would be kind of pointless to send you through a tutorial on every single sight. Not to mention it would be tiresome to anyone who can just realize that all scopes essentially do is change the zoom.

No excuse for being a mainly PC gamer. There's at most, like 16 buttons on a ps3 controller, how hard is it too press each one of those one time to see what would happen? The only basics that are essential are aiming down sight, and shooting, if you can't figure that out on your own, well, lets just say that's pretty pathetic. Honestly, I can't understand how you had this much trouble with this game.
Anyone who knows anything about good game design knows not to rely on those controller maps at menus. Teaching a player is something that is done as the game goes on. Heck, Portal is more tutorial than game, and yet it's really good because it does it right. I never looked at a single controller map for that game. I never needed to. I was taught things early on in an environment that didn't punish me for learning rather than already knowing. A strong tutorial trumps a controller map of any kind any day of the week.

  • 12.24.2012 11:19 PM PDT

Posted by: Sh1n1ng Wolf
Posted by: cameo_cream
They did explain who the PLR by the way, you've got to pay attention.
I'm guessing this explanation was incredibly convoluted, vauge, short and only brought up once?
Spot on.

  • 12.24.2012 11:20 PM PDT

Posted by: Michael Balzary
Is this your first post-2007 shooter? Stop complaining when you're bad at a game in a genre you're not familiar with. That's like going into another country and complaining that the culture is weird.
Hardly. I've played CoD. I've played Unreal and Quake to death. I've played some Band of Brothers. I've played Operation Flashpoint. I've played Medal of Honor. This is not my preferred genre, but I've had plenty of experience in FPS games.

  • 12.24.2012 11:21 PM PDT

"I'm afraid of the man I'll become if I lay my life down for the people I don't even care for"

Woah!

Why have I not seen you around?

  • 12.24.2012 11:22 PM PDT

Posted by: UnfitFatbill
Woah!

Why have I not seen you around?
Eh, because I'm not that big of a member, and I'm not well known. I'm pretty much invisibru most of the time.

  • 12.24.2012 11:23 PM PDT
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Posted by: A Dumb Door
Anyone who knows anything about good game design knows not to rely on those controller maps at menus. Teaching a player is something that is done as the game goes on. Heck, Portal is more tutorial than game, and yet it's really good because it does it right. I never looked at a single controller map for that game. I never needed to. I was taught things early on in an environment that didn't punish me for learning rather than already knowing. A strong tutorial trumps a controller map of any kind any day of the week.
What? You're not the game designer, if you really care about what the controls are, then the controller map is exactly where you should go. No debating that.

Now maybe this was naïve on Dice's part, but they figured almost everyone who was going to play battlefield will have played a FPS in the past 6 years, and as such will be able to figure out the very basic controls. Do you think they should subject everyone to a tutorial for a genre that has essentially stayed the same since 2005? Portal is a rather different type of game that doesn't have any obvious spiritual predecessors. Battlefield on the other hand is entirely obvious what you should be doing.

Once again, what would the tutorial really consist of? Press RT to shoot, press LT to ads, press B to crouch. All of which could be found out by simply spending a minute pushing buttons. Don't you see how stupid it would be if they put that in?

  • 12.24.2012 11:33 PM PDT

Posted by: Xvise66
Posted by: A Dumb Door
Anyone who knows anything about good game design knows not to rely on those controller maps at menus. Teaching a player is something that is done as the game goes on. Heck, Portal is more tutorial than game, and yet it's really good because it does it right. I never looked at a single controller map for that game. I never needed to. I was taught things early on in an environment that didn't punish me for learning rather than already knowing. A strong tutorial trumps a controller map of any kind any day of the week.
What? You're not the game designer, if you really care about what the controls are, then the controller map is exactly where you should go. No debating that.

Now maybe this was naïve on Dice's part, but they figured almost everyone who was going to play battlefield will have played a FPS in the past 6 years, and as such will be able to figure out the very basic controls. Do you think they should subject everyone to a tutorial for a genre that has essentially stayed the same since 2005? Portal is a rather different type of game that doesn't have any obvious spiritual predecessors. Battlefield on the other hand is entirely obvious what you should be doing.

Once again, what would the tutorial really consist of? Press RT to shoot, press LT to ads, press B to crouch. All of which could be found out by simply spending a minute pushing buttons. Don't you see how stupid it would be if they put that in?
No, it would greatly help the game to have at tutorial. I'd actually agree with just a five minute one that's optional from the menu. Then veterans to the Battlefield series don't need to play it, but those who haven't played Battlefield yet have a chance to see what it's all about such that we can actually perform as we're supposed to.

As for not being the game designer, no, I'm not the game designer. That's evident by the fact that the game was not enhanced by the addition of some form of tutorial.

BTW, a tutorial isn't JUST controls. It's a preview of what you're going to have to look out for that isn't going to have time spent on for teaching.

[Edited on 12.24.2012 11:37 PM PST]

  • 12.24.2012 11:36 PM PDT
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Posted by: A Dumb Door
No, it would greatly help the game to have at tutorial. I'd actually agree with just a five minute one that's optional from the menu. Then veterans to the Battlefield series don't need to play it, but those who haven't played Battlefield yet have a chance to see what it's all about such that we can actually perform as we're supposed to.

As for not being the game designer, no, I'm not the game designer. That's evident by the fact that the game was not enhanced by the addition of some form of tutorial.
Once again, what would actually consist of the tutorial? Do you really need them to spoonfeed you how to aim down your sights? Or how to crouch? If you really need that then I will concede all my points, and admit that a tutorial telling you how to shoot would be a good idea.

  • 12.24.2012 11:39 PM PDT

Posted by: Xvise66
Posted by: A Dumb Door
No, it would greatly help the game to have at tutorial. I'd actually agree with just a five minute one that's optional from the menu. Then veterans to the Battlefield series don't need to play it, but those who haven't played Battlefield yet have a chance to see what it's all about such that we can actually perform as we're supposed to.

As for not being the game designer, no, I'm not the game designer. That's evident by the fact that the game was not enhanced by the addition of some form of tutorial.
Once again, what would actually consist of the tutorial? Do you really need them to spoonfeed you how to aim down your sights? Or how to crouch? If you really need that then I will concede all my points, and admit that a tutorial telling you how to shoot would be a good idea.
An ad hominem argument will not win you this debate, as I'm a seasoned gamer. I grew up on games, and yet I still see this as a problem.

A tutorial would probably consist of a brief glance over basic controls, then a run through obstacles so that the player knows what they can/can't do, some exploration into what can/can't be destroyed in the environment, about how bullet piercing was handled in this game, what grenades will be like, what your grenade trajectory is like, the amount of bullet lag your gun has/bullet drop if any, and maybe some practice with RPG's and equipment use.

For example, the first time I was told to use an ammo crate, it was tucked inside of a building where it wasn't easily visible. Next time, it was pitch black and it was hard to see. Seeing an ammo crate in well-lit conditions would make it MUCH easier to spot later, rather than having to figure out what box-shaped object amidst a sea of similarly shaped objects in a dark room is the one I'm looking for.

  • 12.24.2012 11:44 PM PDT

Posted by: A Dumb Door

Far more work should have gone into making the game accessible in the beginning. Heck, as notorious as Dark Souls is for being hard, it slowly introduces you to concepts and makes it easy to understand. Just running through once or twice teaches you everything you need to know about an area, and then you can breeze through it executing it properly. Psychonauts is controller-snappingly frustrating at the end due to its difficulty, but by then, you've already mastered how to play the game thanks to half the game just teaching you how to play! God of War thrust you right into a big combat scenario early on, but it doesn't add anything complicated, and keeps things simple for the beginning battle, which is still a tutorial.

Wait so Battlefield is bad because it doesn't tell you basic FPS controls yet Dark Souls is good at teaching you about the game...?
Dark Souls does a horrible job at explaining things to you when you first play unless you look things up, I didn't understand what the intelligence, faith, poise or humanity stats really did for a while. Yea Dark Souls gives you the basic controls, but theres much more to the game that you need to figure out on your own and the game doesn't really tell you.

  • 12.24.2012 11:47 PM PDT

Posted by: wallawalla1992
Posted by: A Dumb Door
Far more work should have gone into making the game accessible in the beginning. Heck, as notorious as Dark Souls is for being hard, it slowly introduces you to concepts and makes it easy to understand. Just running through once or twice teaches you everything you need to know about an area, and then you can breeze through it executing it properly. Psychonauts is controller-snappingly frustrating at the end due to its difficulty, but by then, you've already mastered how to play the game thanks to half the game just teaching you how to play! God of War thrust you right into a big combat scenario early on, but it doesn't add anything complicated, and keeps things simple for the beginning battle, which is still a tutorial.
Wait so Battlefield is bad because it doesn't tell you basic FPS controls yet Dark Souls is good at teaching you about the game...?
Dark Souls does a horrible job at explaining things to you when you first play unless you look things up, I didn't understand what the intelligence, faith, poise or humanity stats really did for a while. Yea Dark Souls gives you the basic controls, but theres much more to the game that you need to figure out on your own and the game doesn't really tell you.
I said it's good at teaching you the basic beginning mechanics. Sure, the rabbit hole goes much deeper, and the very complicated mechanics may take more getting used to, but the most basic of which that you're using constantly, combat, is well explained and you are taught in an environment that is conducive for learning and experimenting.

[Edited on 12.24.2012 11:52 PM PST]

  • 12.24.2012 11:49 PM PDT
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Posted by: A Dumb Door
An ad hominem argument will not win you this debate, as I'm a seasoned gamer. I grew up on games, and yet I still see this as a problem.

A tutorial would probably consist of a brief glance over basic controls, then a run through obstacles so that the player knows what they can/can't do, some exploration into what can/can't be destroyed in the environment, about how bullet piercing was handled in this game, what grenades will be like, what your grenade trajectory is like, the amount of bullet lag your gun has/bullet drop if any, and maybe some practice with RPG's and equipment use.

For example, the first time I was told to use an ammo crate, it was tucked inside of a building where it wasn't easily visible. Next time, it was pitch black and it was hard to see. Seeing an ammo crate in well-lit conditions would make it MUCH easier to spot later, rather than having to figure out what box-shaped object amidst a sea of similarly shaped objects in a dark room is the one I'm looking for.
It's not an ad hominem because your argument is about how you are basically too stupid to figure out how to crouch and need the game to go over it with you. I really don't want to put you in that corner because that is pretty embarrassing, but that is what you are arguing for.

Everything you listed, can easily be figured out within 2 minutes of starting the campaign. Want to figure out how grenades work? Throw a grenade. Bullet drop would be a problem because its different for every single gun(though obviously to small degrees) and I don't think you want to argue this tutorial should have you use every single gun. I don't remember perfectly because it's been over a year since I've played the campaign(as everyone in this thread already stated, nobody buys bf3 for the campaign), but when equipment you haven't used before shows up like C4, it has a little popup that basically spoonfeeds you what to do. Evironmental destruction is inconsistent in BF3 so it would be hard too put all that in a little section at the beginning, and its just much easier(and efficient to learn by trial and error.

And if you can't find an ammocrate after a while, it has an indicator on your HUD to find it that says AMMO.

  • 12.24.2012 11:57 PM PDT

Posted by: A Dumb Door
I said it's good at teaching you the basic beginning mechanics. Sure, the rabbit hole goes much deeper, and the very complicated mechanics may take more getting used to, but the most basic of which that you're using constantly, combat, is well explained and you are taught in an environment that is conducive for learning and experimenting.
They give you the controls and throw you at a couple enemies then throw you at a boss. You could just look at the controls in the options and then play the first level of Battlefields campaign and get the same result.

It was a while ago but Im pretty sure even ENB said how Fromsoft did a horrible job at explaining things and a real tutorial would have helped first time players in DarkSouls.

  • 12.25.2012 12:02 AM PDT

Posted by: Xvise66
Posted by: A Dumb Door
An ad hominem argument will not win you this debate, as I'm a seasoned gamer. I grew up on games, and yet I still see this as a problem.

A tutorial would probably consist of a brief glance over basic controls, then a run through obstacles so that the player knows what they can/can't do, some exploration into what can/can't be destroyed in the environment, about how bullet piercing was handled in this game, what grenades will be like, what your grenade trajectory is like, the amount of bullet lag your gun has/bullet drop if any, and maybe some practice with RPG's and equipment use.

For example, the first time I was told to use an ammo crate, it was tucked inside of a building where it wasn't easily visible. Next time, it was pitch black and it was hard to see. Seeing an ammo crate in well-lit conditions would make it MUCH easier to spot later, rather than having to figure out what box-shaped object amidst a sea of similarly shaped objects in a dark room is the one I'm looking for.
It's not an ad hominem because your argument is about how you are basically too stupid to figure out how to crouch and need the game to go over it with you. I really don't want to put you in that corner because that is pretty embarrassing, but that is what you are arguing for.

Everything you listed, can easily be figured out within 2 minutes of starting the campaign. Want to figure out how grenades work? Throw a grenade. Bullet drop would be a problem because its different for every single gun(though obviously to small degrees) and I don't think you want to argue this tutorial should have you use every single gun. I don't remember perfectly because it's been over a year since I've played the campaign(as everyone in this thread already stated, nobody buys bf3 for the campaign), but when equipment you haven't used before shows up like C4, it has a little popup that basically spoonfeeds you what to do. Evironmental destruction is inconsistent in BF3 so it would be hard too put all that in a little section at the beginning, and its just much easier(and efficient to learn by trial and error.

And if you can't find an ammocrate after a while, it has an indicator on your HUD to find it that says AMMO.
If you can't figure out that you're trying to use an ad hominem argument in a roundabout manner, I'm going to have to throw you into a debate class so that you can learn it.

Also, yeah, sure, that stuff COULD be learned... If the campaign were conducive for learning it. Every single minute is full of conflict. Every moment has quicktime events, orders being thrown at you, linear missions, etc. If the game had a quiet moment after that first mission for you to goof around during, my complaints against controls and some explanation would not be as valid. You'd have the time to figure out what does what. However, the campaign is not done in such a way that it makes learning like this an easy option.

Also, no, I don't mean fire EVERY weapon, but at least a little mention that there's bullet drop would be nice.

As for equipment, my first experience with it was multiplayer. That might be partially my fault, but at least knowing that the directional buttons each corresponded to something different would have been nice.

Oh, and the irony behind ammo boxes:
My first experience with them was in multiplayer. I played it at a friend's house. I found an ammo drop that some guy had placed, and refilled my ammo. Did the same with health. That's what I thought ammo packs looked like. Therefore, when I was in campaign, it said to refill my ammo. So I checked my teammates for an ammo drop, no luck. Looked around outside thinking it might have been airdropped. No such luck. Backtracked, looked through the building, and then finally noticed that the massive dumpster-looking thing was the ammo box. You can understand my confusion at that, thinking that it looked differently.

  • 12.25.2012 12:04 AM PDT

Posted by: wallawalla1992
Posted by: A Dumb Door
I said it's good at teaching you the basic beginning mechanics. Sure, the rabbit hole goes much deeper, and the very complicated mechanics may take more getting used to, but the most basic of which that you're using constantly, combat, is well explained and you are taught in an environment that is conducive for learning and experimenting.
They give you the controls and throw you at a couple enemies then throw you at a boss. You could just look at the controls in the options and then play the first level of Battlefields campaign and get the same result.

It was a while ago but Im pretty sure even ENB said how Fromsoft did a horrible job at explaining things and a real tutorial would have helped first time players in DarkSouls.
Concession: Dark Souls isn't the BEST example for a tutorial, but it did better than BF3. I wasn't intentionally using it as a tutorial argument, but it sort of got turned into that partway through.

Dark Souls does, however, put you in an environment that allows for learning in the beginning. It gives you basic controls and information, and then the enemies move slowly, are really weak, and are varied in the beginning. You learn all about the various kinds of enemies through fighting them in a very basic beginning scenario without much difficulty. That first tutorial level actually does teach you how to play with the most basic elements of the game, which are the ones you need to at least survive.

  • 12.25.2012 12:07 AM PDT
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Posted by: A Dumb Door
url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem]If you can't figure out that you're trying to use an ad hominem argument in a roundabout manner, I'm going to have to throw you into a debate class so that you can learn it.[/url]

Also, yeah, sure, that stuff COULD be learned... If the campaign were conducive for learning it. Every single minute is full of conflict. Every moment has quicktime events, orders being thrown at you, linear missions, etc. If the game had a quiet moment after that first mission for you to goof around during, my complaints against controls and some explanation would not be as valid. You'd have the time to figure out what does what. However, the campaign is not done in such a way that it makes learning like this an easy option.

Also, no, I don't mean fire EVERY weapon, but at least a little mention that there's bullet drop would be nice.

As for equipment, my first experience with it was multiplayer. That might be partially my fault, but at least knowing that the directional buttons each corresponded to something different would have been nice.

Oh, and the irony behind ammo boxes:
My first experience with them was in multiplayer. I played it at a friend's house. I found an ammo drop that some guy had placed, and refilled my ammo. Did the same with health. That's what I thought ammo packs looked like. Therefore, when I was in campaign, it said to refill my ammo. So I checked my teammates for an ammo drop, no luck. Looked around outside thinking it might have been airdropped. No such luck. Backtracked, looked through the building, and then finally noticed that the massive dumpster-looking thing was the ammo box. You can understand my confusion at that, thinking that it looked differently.
Read that wiki page again. Your entire argument rests on that you are not capable of figuring this stuff out(or that the game would be much better if it did spoonfeed it to you),ad hominem would be if I called your mother a slut or something, but the fact that you are incapable of figuring out extremely basic things about a game whose mechanics have been used for the past 5 or 6 years is very relevant to the argument. I'm not saying battlefield is perfect in the way it tells you how to do things, but geez, come on.

And no need to use hyperbole, the first five minutes of the campaign have absolutely no conflict(as well as no QTE's), or orders being thrown at you for that matter. When the indicator comes up on your squad leader to follow, you could just toss a grenade, aim down your sights and pump off a few rounds, do whatever you want really. After the firefight your told too go to another place and move across the street. That would have been another great time to pump off some rounds and check out ammo drop and press buttons if the controls were still evading you.

There's no excuse for not finding the ammo box. Its a giant sign on your hud, I can't believe you even brought it up. And I know i'm not the only one in this thread who seriously questions how you had trouble with this game.

  • 12.25.2012 12:21 AM PDT