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Subject: No flaming please: Bane and Talia were awful villains
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Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
When Nolan worked so hard in the Batman Begins to give this Batman series a believable setting grounded in reality that people could relate to, he did it specifically so that people wouldn't have to walk away from his movie saying "oh, well that part of the plot was stupid but it's okay because it's just a superhero movie", and TDKR was a disgrace.


If you're going to bring up the nuclear reactor complaint, you sure as hell can't completely ignore the whole microwaves from the microwave emitter only affecting the water but not anything else, despite humans being made of 70%, with Batman and Ras fighting right infront of the emitter.

But you know what, I don't necessarily care. Sure there are a few scientific errors in the movies, but I still love them. They're brilliant movies.

  • 12.26.2012 9:38 AM PDT
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Posted by: The fat guy 3000

Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
When Nolan worked so hard in the Batman Begins to give this Batman series a believable setting grounded in reality that people could relate to, he did it specifically so that people wouldn't have to walk away from his movie saying "oh, well that part of the plot was stupid but it's okay because it's just a superhero movie", and TDKR was a disgrace.


If you're going to bring up the nuclear reactor complaint, you sure as hell can't completely ignore the whole microwaves from the microwave emitter only affecting the water but not anything else, despite humans being made of 70%, with Batman and Ras fighting right infront of the emitter.

But you know what, I don't necessarily care. Sure there are a few scientific errors in the movies, but I still love them. They're brilliant movies.


That's why I don't complain about scientific errors and technological stuff.

All my complaints are about character motivations and terrible and contrived goals and plot.

  • 12.26.2012 9:39 AM PDT

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Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey

Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
Not to mention that Ras' goal was fulfilled after TDK when the police ran out the mob and basically eliminated the Gotham underworld. So Talia was just redundant and unnecessary. Nothing they did make sense, and it's annoying how lazy the plot was.

Also, nuclear reactors cannot turn into nuclear bombs.

Not to forget that this is a super-hero movie where Batman exist and as grounded and realistic as the movie tries to be, it is always a movie first.

People who try to compare it to reality and make points that is inconsistent with reality therefore= bad movie, just do not get it. That, it's done with entertainment purposes in mind not a live re-enactment done with scientific scale to please the nerdy critics who like to compare realistic accuracy.


Then Nolan probably shouldn't have given it such a gritty and realistic feel to it. It's not at all nerdy to Google the question "can nuclear reactors explode?" and realize that the entire plot is nullified by the answer "no, as a matter of fact, they can't explode because that would be stupid".

-The villains' motives don't make sense
-The timeline doesn't make sense
-Bruce's depression doesn't make sense (because it's directly related to his awesome reactor becoming a bomb)
-The prison doesn't make sense
-Batman's lack of fighting abilities don't make sense
-WURRR IS DA TRIGGAAA

When Nolan worked so hard in the Batman Begins to give this Batman series a believable setting grounded in reality that people could relate to, he did it specifically so that people wouldn't have to walk away from his movie saying "oh, well that part of the plot was stupid but it's okay because it's just a superhero movie", and TDKR was a disgrace.


You need to watch it again.

In a nutshell:

-Villain motives where to make Bruce pay for his murder of Ras, and destroying Gotham to fulfil the L of Shadows aim.

-Timeline? What the hell do you mean?

-Rachel died, he failed, a lot of it is because of the events of the Dark Knight.

-It gives people hope, that they can escape, but they never will. Watch the movie to get more of a explaination.

-He has a lack of fighting skills for obvious reasons, mainly that his leg was damaged in TDK, and he hadn't been fighting for 8 YEARS.

-You're just being stupid now.

  • 12.26.2012 9:39 AM PDT

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Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
Posted by: hazzer the hawk
The only fight Batman lost was against Bane


2 fights lost against Bane, another fight with Catwoman on a rooftop, and a car chase scene where he let the villains escape by distracting the cops.



What? In the second fight with Bane he won, but Talia stabbed him in the back afterwards. He never thought Catwoman. And Bane was the only one who got away, but Batman got the other guy because he was holding the device.

  • 12.26.2012 9:42 AM PDT

-blam!- Was that actually blammed out? Or did I just type it? You'll never know.

-Talia and Bane's edition of the plan was a revenge for honor plot disguised as a restorative process of liberation.

-To torture Bruce, while he watches his city fall apart from his grungy TV in the prison (until he breaks it, destroying the only link the prisoners have with the outside world like a douche).

-Didn't really sound surprised to me. But he thought he'd broken Batman irreparably, which was the whole point of the movie. Bane underestimates Batman in bringing him to his lowest point, thinking Batman is too weak to come back from it. Then, the Dark Knight... Raises himself.

-Physical brutality alone does not a good villain make. Bane is obviously above such mutilations.

-Because the focus of their plan is Batman, not the city. Talia would not have missed the opportunity to hurt Batman even further by explaining the plan. They're taking Batman through an experience, and to simply blow up the city as soon as he was back would ruin that.

-Again, it's not about the city, it's about Batman.

It's hard for me to enjoy this movie when the villains make completely stupid decisions.You must not enjoy many movies then, because most are based on all characters making stupid choices. Sometimes that's even the point of the film.

Bane was pretty much as good an antagonist as you get. He stand opposite the protagonist in the central conflict and orchestrates the events which will put the protagonist through some change, completing his arc for the story. He challenges Batman more than any villain he's faced before and forces the character to grow. That's pretty much as good as it gets for antagonists.

  • 12.26.2012 9:42 AM PDT
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Posted by: hazzer the hawk

Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
Posted by: hazzer the hawk
The only fight Batman lost was against Bane


2 fights lost against Bane, another fight with Catwoman on a rooftop, and a car chase scene where he let the villains escape by distracting the cops.



What? In the second fight with Bane he won, but Talia stabbed him in the back afterwards. He never thought Catwoman. And Bane was the only one who got away, but Batman got the other guy because he was holding the device.


It's also as if he hasn't watched the movie. No wonder he's complaining about the movie, he's almost completely ignorant of everything what happens on it.

  • 12.26.2012 9:44 AM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.


Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey

Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
Not to mention that Ras' goal was fulfilled after TDK when the police ran out the mob and basically eliminated the Gotham underworld. So Talia was just redundant and unnecessary. Nothing they did make sense, and it's annoying how lazy the plot was.

Also, nuclear reactors cannot turn into nuclear bombs.

Not to forget that this is a super-hero movie where Batman exist and as grounded and realistic as the movie tries to be, it is always a movie first.

People who try to compare it to reality and make points that is inconsistent with reality therefore= bad movie, just do not get it. That, it's done with entertainment purposes in mind not a live re-enactment done with scientific scale to please the nerdy critics who like to compare realistic accuracy.


Then Nolan probably shouldn't have given it such a gritty and realistic feel to it. It's not at all nerdy to Google the question "can nuclear reactors explode?" and realize that the entire plot is nullified by the answer "no, as a matter of fact, they can't explode because that would be stupid".

-The villains' motives don't make sense
-The timeline doesn't make sense
-Bruce's depression doesn't make sense (because it's directly related to his awesome reactor becoming a bomb)
-The prison doesn't make sense
-Batman's lack of fighting abilities don't make sense
-WURRR IS DA TRIGGAAA

When Nolan worked so hard in the Batman Begins to give this Batman series a believable setting grounded in reality that people could relate to, he did it specifically so that people wouldn't have to walk away from his movie saying "oh, well that part of the plot was stupid but it's okay because it's just a superhero movie", and TDKR was a disgrace.


See this is the bit where you want me to argue that it does make sense.

But I'm just going to say Batman in general does not make sense. Why do you pick and choose what you want to believe in the story?

The villains motives did not make sense?

I'm sorry but did we watch the same movie? Talia is Ra's daughter, she wanted to finish what her father had started. Bain was just a loyal guard. His motive's lied with whatever Talia's motives were.

The timeline does not make sense?
Movie=ruined. This is so essential to the plot right, we must know every minute of every second in this fictional world to acept this is a good movie. Why is this even an issue? I would understand if this was to a large extent that it did not make sense but it's a very little thing that only affects consistency of the movie. Petty argument point.

Bruce's depression doesn't make sense?
Okay fine it doesn't, I'm not here to defend Bruce.
Movie is ruined.

Batman lacks fighting skills?
Okay. What is there to say? He did. So this is a contributing factor to a terrible movie because Batman has less fighting skills?

Where is the trigger?
If i say up your bumhole does it make it any better? because for all we know Nolan could have very well written that in his script.So bad movie.

Nolan tried to make a grounded movie, as much as he could. However I'm sure he knew that no matter how grounded it would be/ how believable it could be. It is always going to be flawed realistically because this is a world where Batman exists.

I really am finding so hard to grasp that people who want to critique these movies for every inch of disbelief, forgot that they are not analyzing Historic Primary Sources, but fictional works of entertainment.

  • 12.26.2012 9:44 AM PDT
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Posted by: Forever MS
*First off, the reasoning for their plan (corruption, all that BS, is dumb) Ras' goal was fulfilled after TDK when the police ran out the mob and basically eliminated the Gotham underworld. So Talia was just redundant and unnecessary.

I don't think you paid much attention to the goal of The League of Shadows. They wanted to completely wipe out Gotham to "restore balance" to the world. The only way they could get rid of the mob was to LIE (Harvey's death, Batman becoming a murderer, etc.), and they even addressed that in the movie. I would say that still constitutes as a corrupt society.
"Gotham is beyond saving."


Posted by: Forever MS
*But when Bane captures Batman, what does he do? Place him with a friendly inmate and the freaking DOCTOR. Who both happen to know Bane's entire history and escape plan. And he's surprised when Bruce returns?

Bane didn't escape...Talia did. In fact, the doctor and inmate didn't even say anything about Bane or Talia escaping, all they said was a child escaped without using the rope...Bruce just assumed that it was Bane and the director was clever enough to convince the audience that it was Bane until the twist was revealed.


Posted by: Forever MS
*Okay, so Bane doesn't do that. Batman returns! Bane and Talia know! Yet...they still don't detonate the bomb? WHY? After FIVE MONTHS OF TORTURING A CITY, they can't detonate it ONE DAY EARLIER, because the person who can foil their plans returned?

Bane and Talia still had the upper hand. Would you have liked it better if they went "Oh Batman's back, there's no hope let's just blow Gotham up now"? They pretty much had a gun to Batman's head by the end and could've killed him, but of course you have to remember this is a movie, a very popular movie, and you can't just go and piss off a whole audience like that.

  • 12.26.2012 9:45 AM PDT

**Devil's advocate of the Flood. My posts may or may not represent my personal opinion, I just enjoy disagreeing with people. None of my posts are representative of the official view of the Navy or any government agency.

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Posted by: hazzer the hawk

Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
Posted by: hazzer the hawk
The only fight Batman lost was against Bane


2 fights lost against Bane, another fight with Catwoman on a rooftop, and a car chase scene where he let the villains escape by distracting the cops.



What? In the second fight with Bane he won, but Talia stabbed him in the back afterwards. He never thought Catwoman. And Bane was the only one who got away, but Batman got the other guy because he was holding the device.


Batman did not win in the second fight; Catwoman had to shoot Bane. Getting stabbed in the back isn't an excuse...he's a ninja, but has zero situational awareness. And I never said he fought Catwoman; they fought thugs on a rooftop before running from Bane.

To the guy above telling me to watch the movie again...no thanks, I saw it 3 times and every time I saw it there were more glaring problems. It was a fun movie, but it was very disappointing how easily it crumbles under the tiniest inspection.

lol@ "it's just a superhero movie"/"it's just a movie", as if that's some sort of excuse for shoddy plot.

[Edited on 12.26.2012 9:49 AM PST]

  • 12.26.2012 9:47 AM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

Posted by: Ness4side
but of course you have to remember this is a movie, a very popular movie, and you can't just go and piss off a whole audience like that.

Someone who gets it.

  • 12.26.2012 9:49 AM PDT
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Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey

Posted by: hazzer the hawk

Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
Posted by: hazzer the hawk
The only fight Batman lost was against Bane


2 fights lost against Bane, another fight with Catwoman on a rooftop, and a car chase scene where he let the villains escape by distracting the cops.



What? In the second fight with Bane he won, but Talia stabbed him in the back afterwards. He never thought Catwoman. And Bane was the only one who got away, but Batman got the other guy because he was holding the device.


Batman did not win in the second fight; Catwoman had to shoot Bane. Getting stabbed in the back isn't an excuse...he's a ninja, but has zero situational awareness.

To the guy above telling me to watch the movie again...no thanks, I saw it 3 times and every time I saw it there were more glaring problems. It was a fun movie, but it was very disappointing how easily it crumbles under the tiniest inspection.

lol@ "it's just a superhero movie"/"it's just a movie", as if that's some sort of excuse for shoddy plot.


You're not very good as inspecting when you claim that Batman Begins made perfect sense when it comes to science and plot points. Such as the microwave emitter.

Same with inspecting motives. Everything you claimed didn't make sense, made perfect sense.

[Edited on 12.26.2012 9:51 AM PST]

  • 12.26.2012 9:50 AM PDT

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Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey

Posted by: hazzer the hawk

Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
Posted by: hazzer the hawk
The only fight Batman lost was against Bane


2 fights lost against Bane, another fight with Catwoman on a rooftop, and a car chase scene where he let the villains escape by distracting the cops.



What? In the second fight with Bane he won, but Talia stabbed him in the back afterwards. He never thought Catwoman. And Bane was the only one who got away, but Batman got the other guy because he was holding the device.


Batman did not win in the second fight; Catwoman had to shoot Bane. Getting stabbed in the back isn't an excuse...he's a ninja, but has zero situational awareness.

To the guy above telling me to watch the movie again...no thanks, I saw it 3 times and every time I saw it there were more glaring problems. It was a fun movie, but it was very disappointing how easily it crumbles under the tiniest inspection.

lol@ "it's just a superhero movie"/"it's just a movie", as if that's some sort of excuse for shoddy plot.



Batman had already beaten Bane, but Talia's intervention rendered Batman weak, and Bane just wrapped a rope around his neck. Bane didn't win.

  • 12.26.2012 9:52 AM PDT
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Why So Serious?

"I'm gonna go America all over everybody's asses!"
-Charlie, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia

Jesus Christ.

SUSPENSION.
OF.
DISBELIEF.


When you are consuming fictional content it is vital to your enjoyment that you do not try to hold every single thing that happens in the book/movie/video game/etc. up to real world logic.

  • 12.26.2012 9:53 AM PDT

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Posted by: ninjakenzen

Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey

Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
Not to mention that Ras' goal was fulfilled after TDK when the police ran out the mob and basically eliminated the Gotham underworld. So Talia was just redundant and unnecessary. Nothing they did make sense, and it's annoying how lazy the plot was.

Also, nuclear reactors cannot turn into nuclear bombs.

Not to forget that this is a super-hero movie where Batman exist and as grounded and realistic as the movie tries to be, it is always a movie first.

People who try to compare it to reality and make points that is inconsistent with reality therefore= bad movie, just do not get it. That, it's done with entertainment purposes in mind not a live re-enactment done with scientific scale to please the nerdy critics who like to compare realistic accuracy.


Then Nolan probably shouldn't have given it such a gritty and realistic feel to it. It's not at all nerdy to Google the question "can nuclear reactors explode?" and realize that the entire plot is nullified by the answer "no, as a matter of fact, they can't explode because that would be stupid".

-The villains' motives don't make sense
-The timeline doesn't make sense
-Bruce's depression doesn't make sense (because it's directly related to his awesome reactor becoming a bomb)
-The prison doesn't make sense
-Batman's lack of fighting abilities don't make sense
-WURRR IS DA TRIGGAAA

When Nolan worked so hard in the Batman Begins to give this Batman series a believable setting grounded in reality that people could relate to, he did it specifically so that people wouldn't have to walk away from his movie saying "oh, well that part of the plot was stupid but it's okay because it's just a superhero movie", and TDKR was a disgrace.


See this is the bit where you want me to argue that it does make sense.

But I'm just going to say Batman in general does not make sense. Why do you pick and choose what you want to believe in the story?

The villains motives did not make sense?

I'm sorry but did we watch the same movie? Talia is Ra's daughter, she wanted to finish what her father had started. Bain was just a loyal guard. His motive's lied with whatever Talia's motives were.

The timeline does not make sense?
Movie=ruined. This is so essential to the plot right, we must know every minute of every second in this fictional world to acept this is a good movie. Why is this even an issue? I would understand if this was to a large extent that it did not make sense but it's a very little thing that only affects consistency of the movie. Petty argument point.

Bruce's depression doesn't make sense?
Okay fine it doesn't, I'm not here to defend Bruce.
Movie is ruined.

Batman lacks fighting skills?
Okay. What is there to say? He did. So this is a contributing factor to a terrible movie because Batman has less fighting skills?

Where is the trigger?
If i say up your bumhole does it make it any better? because for all we know Nolan could have very well written that in his script.So bad movie.

Nolan tried to make a grounded movie, as much as he could. However I'm sure he knew that no matter how grounded it would be/ how believable it could be. It is always going to be flawed realistically because this is a world where Batman exists.

I really am finding so hard to grasp that people who want to critique these movies for every inch of disbelief, forgot that they are not analyzing Historic Primary Sources, but fictional works of entertainment.


How about you people learn to respond without acting like children and throwing around insults?

Talia's motive: She wanted to finish what her father started: destroy Gotham because it was infested with villainy. Okay, the cops and Batman did that during and after TDK. Problem solved. No more mob.

Timeline: Did I ask for specifics? No, but stuff like "how did Batman get home in one day from a hole in the ground he just climbed out of?", "how long was Batman in the prison?", etc.

Apparently you don't enjoy analyzing the media you consume, so why are you even in this thread?

  • 12.26.2012 9:53 AM PDT

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Posted by: The fat guy 3000
You're not very good as inspecting when you claim that Batman Begins made perfect sense when it comes to science and plot points. Such as the microwave emitter.
I didn't make that claim at all.

Same with inspecting motives. Everything you claimed didn't make sense, made perfect sense.
Like what?

[Edited on 12.26.2012 9:55 AM PST]

  • 12.26.2012 9:54 AM PDT
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Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
Like what?


Well, Bane's motives and Bruce's depression made sense.

Bruce had failed to save his only chance to have a normal life, the only woman he loved, as well as his only friend. He had literally no one else out there for him.

Bane's motive? Torture of the soul. To both the people of Gotham and Bruce. This was just further expanded on with Talia. "It's the slow knife which cuts the deepest"

  • 12.26.2012 9:59 AM PDT
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Posted by: Forever MS
No flaming please


[Edited on 12.26.2012 10:01 AM PST]

  • 12.26.2012 10:00 AM PDT
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Posted by: Hokage123679

Posted by: Forever MS

Posted by: Hokage123679

Posted by: hazzer the hawk
Talia and Bane want revenger for Ras. Bane pretty much destroyed Bruce's back, so that's probably why he thought he wouldn't escape. Oh and the Talia thing about flooding the reactor, well I think more people would complain if Gotham actually blew up, rendering the other two films useless.
IDK I mean if someone like the joker was able to come in and pretty much wreck the entirety of gotham I wouldn't say Ra's goal was accomplished.


Did you watch the films at all? TDKR takes place 8 years after. 8 years without organized crime.
Forgot about that. My bad. Though I thought her motives were explained as well. I agree that they were not the best villains.

Also, didn't you just make a thread about the movie?

I'm sure in the movie they say that all they could achieve was a lie. The police turned corrupt in order to clean up the streets. That is why they want to destroy it.

  • 12.26.2012 10:04 AM PDT
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Posted by: JFKES
I'm sure in the movie they say that all they could achieve was a lie. The police turned corrupt in order to clean up the streets. That is why they want to destroy it.


They did. Ras said "The only peace you could gain in Gotham was based on a lie. Now you must see that Gotham is beyond saving and must be destroyed" or something along those lines.

Scene

  • 12.26.2012 10:05 AM PDT

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Posted by: The fat guy 3000
Bruce had failed to save his only chance to have a normal life, the only woman he loved, as well as his only friend. He had literally no one else out there for him.
I understand, but he spent, what, 5 years working on a reactor to give clean, cheap energy to Gotham? And then he shut it down and went into hiding because one scientist said he could turn it into a bomb (which is blatantly untrue). He didn't go into seclusion due to the events of TDK; he retired Batman because of TDK. Bruce Wayne was a prominent businessman and philanthropist for many years after Batman retired.

Bane's motive? Torture of the soul. To both the people of Gotham and Bruce. This was just further expanded on with Talia. "It's the slow knife which cuts the deepest"
Gotham didn't even do anything to Bane, it was just his (somewhat creepy, mostly paternal) love for Talia that drove him to commit mass murder. I'm not really concerned with his motive because he's a fairly 1-dimensional character: Talia wants something, so Bane wants it too.

Posted by: The fat guy 3000
They did. Ras said "The only peace you could gain in Gotham was based on a lie. Now you must see that Gotham is beyond saving and must be destroyed" or something along those lines.
That was a hallucination, not actually Ras...Bruce needed it to motivate him to return to Gotham.

[Edited on 12.26.2012 10:09 AM PST]

  • 12.26.2012 10:07 AM PDT
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Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
I understand, but he spent, what, 5 years working on a reactor to give clean, cheap energy to Gotham? And then he shut it down and went into hiding because one scientist said he could turn into a bomb (which is blatantly untrue). He didn't go into seclusion due to the events of TDK; he retired Batman because of TDK. Bruce Wayne was a prominent businessman and philanthropist for many years after Batman retired.


The nuclear reactor was the only thing keeping Bruce up and around. And after having to fight people such as Ras, the Joker and the entire mob, even having to lie to keep the people of Gotham save, and even his own parents killed by a common criminal, it's not exactly hard to believe that Bruce had paranoia regarding the people of Gotham, and didn't want to turn it on knowing that his device could be used as a means of destruction, something he didn't want.

Gotham didn't even do anything to Bane, it was just his (somewhat creepy, mostly paternal) love for Talia that drove him to commit mass murder. I'm not really concerned with his motive because he's a fairly 1-dimensional character: Talia wants something, so Bane wants it too.

Born and raised on hell on Earth, in the worst prison in the world, where he grew up with death around him, coupled along with the love and partnership of talia and the league of shadows, makes it clearly obvious why he's fine with what he's doing. It does make sense.

  • 12.26.2012 10:13 AM PDT
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I thought the movie was good, but the way the characters were portrayed was not very good in my opinion.

Talia only gets revealed as a villian in the very end then gets killed. Kind of like how Spiderman 3 ruined Venom by giving him like 20 minutes on screen as a villain then he dies.

And about halfway through the movie I was really getting sick of Bane's voice. It annoyed the -blam!- out of me.

[Edited on 12.26.2012 10:17 AM PST]

  • 12.26.2012 10:15 AM PDT
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Some things in this World you just can't explain; but that doesn't mean they are any less true, just that you have to chose to believe in them.
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
One, two, Pinkie's... Coming for you...
Three, four... You will breath no more...
Five, six... Gotta add it to the mix...
Seven, eight... Gonna bake cupcakes...
Nine, ten... You're my very best friend...

Ending killed the movie for me.

  • 12.26.2012 10:21 AM PDT
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Posted by: zeog
Ending killed the movie for me.

  • 12.26.2012 12:52 PM PDT

I felt it was an enjoyable movie. You are right however. Personally The Dark Knight was better!

  • 12.26.2012 12:54 PM PDT

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