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  • Subject: Who REALLY won the war in space?
Subject: Who REALLY won the war in space?
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Grunt Warchief

Posted by: grey101


1. Shields were the only reason we were losing so much. If we had them or they didn't we would have won ASAP.





They still have numbers and plasma weaponry over the UNSC. And stealth, and speed, and their troops are pretty much all tougher than humans besides the spartans, and etc, etc.

The War would have been different but i dont think it would be that different.



Yet every time i check how many ships each side lost in the war the covenant always has more than the UNSC for that very reason. They have numbers so see n reason for tactics when they can just rush.


Plasma weaponry doesn't really give them an edge.


Lol, the covenant have never been stealthily, reach was out of line for that part.

What speed? Their slipspace is better but that is it.


They troops are tougher but how many land engagements did the covenant win? Did they win because of tactics or because they just kept unloaded troops from the carriers until the stack was 5 feet high?

You haven't said anything that was accurate that is why.

  • 01.01.2013 12:55 PM PDT


Posted by: grey101


Yet every time i check how many ships each side lost in the war the covenant always has more than the UNSC for that very reason. They have numbers so see n reason for tactics when they can just rush.


Yeah, because the Covenant have more ships too loose and humans resort to suicidal tactics.


Plasma weaponry doesn't really give them an edge.


Mind explaining why not?
Cause outside of shielding there is little protection against this type of stuff.


Lol, the covenant have never been stealthily, reach was out of line for that part.


I said they have stealth not that they exclusively use it all the time.

What speed? Their slipspace is better but that is it.

Yeah.... they are faster, like you just said.

They troops are tougher but how many land engagements did the covenant win? Did they win because of tactics or because they just kept unloaded troops from the carriers until the stack was 5 feet high?

I'm glad you agree that the Covenant have numbers over the humans.


You haven't said anything that was accurate that is why.


You havent countered anything i've said, all you did is basically say, "No because no."

[Edited on 01.01.2013 4:25 PM PST]

  • 01.01.2013 4:25 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Grunt Warchief

Posted by: grey101


Yet every time i check how many ships each side lost in the war the covenant always has more than the UNSC for that very reason. They have numbers so see n reason for tactics when they can just rush.


Yeah, because the Covenant have more ships too loose and humans resort to suicidal tactics.


Plasma weaponry doesn't really give them an edge.


Mind explaining why not?
Cause outside of shielding there is little protection against this type of stuff.


Lol, the covenant have never been stealthily, reach was out of line for that part.


I said they have stealth not that they exclusively use it all the time.

What speed? Their slipspace is better but that is it.

Yeah.... they are faster, like you just said.

They troops are tougher but how many land engagements did the covenant win? Did they win because of tactics or because they just kept unloaded troops from the carriers until the stack was 5 feet high?

I'm glad you agree that the Covenant have numbers over the humans.


You haven't said anything that was accurate that is why.


You havent countered anything i've said, all you did is basically say, "No because no."




1. If the covenant was truly so Superior they shouldn't be loosing so many ships to start with. I don't understand why they didn't have 10 CSO ships (which we know they have Hundreds of or capable craft from FS) and just venture into human space.

The one in halo reach took reach's fleet by itself So i don't see any reasoning why the covenant weren't using these from the start.


What suicidal tactics were the humans using? One ship blocking a superior one from fire isn't suicidal that is tactical. The Keye's loop wasn't suicidal, nor was anything cole did. You might want to start giving some examples instead of throwing out statements.


2. Outside of shielding the covenant have no protection against what we have. Just because it is plasma doesn't magically make it stronger or better than ballistics if anything it isn't better. Far more energy needed which we know the covenant waste on their ships because they are designed for looks not efficiency.

3.And the UNSC has stealth so what is the point of that statement or the last one?

4.I don't see how this relates to anything other than travel. Back in the day it was stated the covenant would jump right in the middle of UNSC battle formations,something we have seen happen like once in a novel (i think) and then in halo legends.


The covenant don't use anything they have to their advantage which was the entire theme they had set up. All this technology but no idea how to use it. They travel faster but do they use this for anything other than travel? The idiots didn't even know they could jump inside a planet until they saw cortana do it.

Think of all the ships they could have saved if they knew they could have done that from the start of the war.


5.How old are you? because only a Human that hasn't lived for very long would get stuck up on the subjectivity of numbers.

Numbers doesn't mean anything if you are an idiot. You do know what the spartans are based off of right? You do know in WW2 the allies were outnumbered by the japanese on the ground in which all they did was rush? Having more numbers doesn't inherently give you the upper hand because sometimes you have too many forces.


What was the point of the covenant having so many ships at reach if they could have just used the sniper ship to destroy everything? Seriously, all they needed was a normal fleet to guard that single ship and it would have been fine. 3 waves of covenant ships rushing by the hundreds wasn't needed whatsoever for what like 20 macs?


6. No, I have countered but you just aren't able to comprehend anything that doesn't revolve around the concept of "a lot".

  • 01.01.2013 8:05 PM PDT


Posted by: grey101


1. If the covenant was truly so Superior they shouldn't be loosing so many ships to start with. I don't understand why they didn't have 10 CSO ships (which we know they have Hundreds of or capable craft from FS) and just venture into human space.

The one in halo reach took reach's fleet by itself So i don't see any reasoning why the covenant weren't using these from the start.


Why do you have this weird idea that because the Covenant are more advanced it means they cant take loses?

No one said they were perfect.


What suicidal tactics were the humans using? One ship blocking a superior one from fire isn't suicidal that is tactical. The Keye's loop wasn't suicidal, nor was anything cole did. You might want to start giving some examples instead of throwing out statements.


The whole Spartan III program was a huge kamikaze-fest, in Halo Reach half of Noble died from suicidal attacks.


2. Outside of shielding the covenant have no protection against what we have. Just because it is plasma doesn't magically make it stronger or better than ballistics if anything it isn't better. Far more energy needed which we know the covenant waste on their ships because they are designed for looks not efficiency.


Dude, im starting think that it's not just your point of view but that you dont really know about the Halo world. Yes plasma weapons are better BECAUSE they are plasma. If you dont know that plasma burns through stuff rather fast i dont even know why should i continue to post.


3.And the UNSC has stealth so what is the point of that statement or the last one?


Stealth for the Covenant isnt restricted to small ships or a few bigger ones.

4.I don't see how this relates to anything other than travel. Back in the day it was stated the covenant would jump right in the middle of UNSC battle formations,something we have seen happen like once in a novel (i think) and then in halo legends.


The covenant don't use anything they have to their advantage which was the entire theme they had set up. All this technology but no idea how to use it. They travel faster but do they use this for anything other than travel? The idiots didn't even know they could jump inside a planet until they saw cortana do it.

Think of all the ships they could have saved if they knew they could have done that from the start of the war.


God, if you dont see how speed can affect ship deployment.... Halo CE starts by telling you that the Covenant got there first because of their speed! Come on.


5.How old are you? because only a Human that hasn't lived for very long would get stuck up on the subjectivity of numbers.

Numbers doesn't mean anything if you are an idiot. You do know what the spartans are based off of right?


I'm guessing you mean the Battle of Thermopylae which you OBVIOUSLY have no idea what you are talking about if you are using it as an example of numbers being meaningless.


You do know in WW2 the allies were outnumbered by the japanese on the ground in which all they did was rush? Having more numbers doesn't inherently give you the upper hand because sometimes you have too many forces.


OMG, dude, could you at least Wiki stuff before putting it up. You dont know what you are talking about.




[Edited on 01.01.2013 10:27 PM PST]

  • 01.01.2013 10:24 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Chester Duncan
Hell look at the battle of Reach, it was the single most powerful human world ever and the covvies had no problem taking it out.

I wouldn't say that they had no problem taking it out when they lost two thirds of their fleet. They might have had to send in a second wave if there wasn't a confusion over the defence of the orbital generators.

  • 01.02.2013 5:53 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


1. The amount of losses the covenant were taking is rather unacceptable. The last time i did the math both side lost around 2,000 ships. How is the idea weird when you think it is perfectly ok?

Cole alone is responsible for majority of the covenant loses and chief is right behind him. two people Did more damage to the covenant than the covenant did to us. Clearly that is an issue. It was clearly stated in FS that the covenant emulate not innovate which the humans do. Meaning they just crudely copied forerunner tech and though that alone was enough to give them supremacy. But they don't understand the technology nor do they use it efficiently. Which is what screwed them over.



2.We are talking about ship engagements, the entire spartan III program was based off those actions but that doesn't represent what the UNSC was doing as a whole. You act like everybody knows they were sending 3-6 year olds to their deaths which isn't true. The war was based off navel engagements not land ones, hence why john and the other spartans felt so worthless during the battle of reach.

And you might want to retract that statement since no spartan in reach completed a suicidal attack. somebody had to stay on the ship to activate the "bomb" because it was messed up, nothing about bravado. Carter had to crash into the pelican because there wasn't any other way to bypass it not to mention he was dying.

2 out of 6 isn't half nor were their deaths suicidal in the way you are trying to make it



3. Sit down and publicly explain why plasma is inherently better than ballistics. It doesn't have anything to do with halo and this forum had this talk about 3 years ago.


First off you can see plasma traveling through air/space which gets you the heads up to try getting out of the way. You can't see a bullet flying through the air and in space you would only see missiles and a laser depending.

If i shoot you in the arm with a plasma rifle the arm will be gone, catheterized, and you wouldn't feel any pain because the limb was pretty much burned off.
Now shoot another person in the arm with a rifle and it gets messy. You have to worry about if the bullet(s) hit a vein or passed cleanly. It honestly goes from there but generally if you get shot in the arm the only thing keeping you going on is adrenaline If we are talking about a warzone. Even then that might not be enough for you to ignore the damage to your arm and keep fighting. Sure you can switch arms but if you can't actually make that work then you will have to be patched up by a medical right there or taken off the filed.


THEN, if you want to be a badass and just completely ignore the wound. You have to worry about the bullet fragmenting in you arm or subserviently wherever it landed, which if not[/n] a good thing. You're a kid do you like iron man? Do you know [b]why he has the arc reactor in his chest? To keep the shrapnel from an explosion (which wasn't caused by plasma) away from his heart.


Ground wise it is factual that Ballistics would be a better choice. In space it doesn't even make a difference with the hull plating the UNSC has. The main reason it was an issue was because the UNSC doesn't but it's ship with redundancies and how the ships are designed. Regardless of what is being used generally any significant damage anywhere to a UNSC ship is a problem. The covenant on the other hand can seriously drop more than half of the ship and be perfectly fine.

In the books we see countless times that other UNSC ships will rush towards the plasma torpedoes to block them form the main fleet. Can you rush towards a MAC round to take the blow? No, because you can't see it nor react fast enough to do anything about it.


4.What exactly are you talking about by "stealth"? Because you aren't saying or elaborating on it other than saying that one word as if i am suppose to know what you are talking about. The only time the covenant use stealth is with ossoona's which are purely for stealth recon or recovery. Spec ops elite again aren't much since the UNSC has Thermal imagery and can easily detect that.


The only major stealth moment the covenant truly had was with the crazy ass elites in Headhunters, which has yet to be explained. So state what you are talking about instead of a single word.



5. Halo CE is tricky because in the original book the covenant were already there It was the UNSC randomly showing up that surprised them and made them wonder if we followed them. So you might want to give another example as speed was only relevant in the rate the covenant could attack.



6. Are you stupid? The spartans and there allies were outnumber [n]by the thousands[/b] and you are seriously telling me that them holding off for a few days doesn't represent my point that mindless rushing with numbers doesn't give you an advantage?



7. If you are using wikipedia as source then you are the fool here. My grandfather was in WW2 and he made it clear to me that sometimes they couldn't even sleep because they just keep getting rushed and rushed and rushed With all the old japanese stuff he preserved from some of the men he killed personally I don't think he was bluffing.

Especially when he had a few medals and i come from a military family. So what the hell are you laughing at about my statement since it is fully accurate.

  • 01.02.2013 7:08 AM PDT

...As far as I know the US usually outnumbered Japan in battles yet the Japanese deployed their soldiers in larger formations than ours. So maybe that's where he's getting that from?

  • 01.02.2013 1:02 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: SOME cGUY789
...As far as I know the US usually outnumbered Japan in battles


Yet i just wiki the battle my grandfather was talking about

Look at the combat loses for the japanese and then the allies.

  • 01.02.2013 1:07 PM PDT


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: SOME cGUY789
...As far as I know the US usually outnumbered Japan in battles


Yet i just wiki the battle my grandfather was talking about

Look at the combat loses for the japanese and then the allies.


Yeah US outnumbered them by a small amount yet still cause far more damage to their forces? Number aren't what decided that though it was the mentality and fighting style of the forces . Americans would be more focused on trying to survive the battle while Japanese soldiers would throw anything they could into it in a bid for victory. Hence why their soldiers died in droves while the US' forces did not.

  • 01.02.2013 1:13 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: SOME cGUY789

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: SOME cGUY789
...As far as I know the US usually outnumbered Japan in battles


Yet i just wiki the battle my grandfather was talking about

Look at the combat loses for the japanese and then the allies.


Yeah US outnumbered them by a small amount yet still cause far more damage to their forces? Number aren't what decided that though it was the mentality and fighting style of the forces . Americans would be more focused on trying to survive the battle while Japanese soldiers would throw anything they could into it in a bid for victory. Hence why their soldiers died in droves while the US' forces did not.



Huh?


The japanese lost nearly 3 times as much as the allied forces did so i don't know where you see the USA outnumbering them.

The reasons do matter. He said they weren't able to sleep because they were constantly being attacked. I will believe what he told me before anybody on the internet that isn't a WW2 vet.

  • 01.02.2013 1:18 PM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

I'm going to mostly agree with grey here. I will add a caveat that the Covenant should have performed better (though they would have undoubtedly swept through humanity eventually without the efforts of the Spartans).

Their shields made their ships much stronger (numerous times the books referenced that it would take 3 human ships to eliminate a single, equivalent covenant vessel). Their ships were able to travel faster through slipspace (referenced in books and in game), and were able to make jumps more precisely and travel in formation through slipspace (First Strike).

Their personal weapons weren't much more powerful, but I do feel that Elites far outpowered human ground forces. It was strongly a numbers game on the ground, but it wasn't entirely this. Elites were a warrior race, and hunters were extremely formidable, and this played an important role.

Their biggest flaw and downfall was arguably their fanaticism. Their religion almost entirely prevented them from improving and in some cases using what technology they had/scavenged. Their shields could have been tougher (the Spartan's shields were said to be stronger than the Elites, in one example) and, in First Strike, Cortana was able to improve on covenant plasma cannon tech by using electromagnetic fields to align the plasma to use as more of a "laser scalpel" than a plasma ball shot.

Were the Covenant superior? Yes. Could they have been additionally so? Absolutely.

  • 01.02.2013 1:20 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

my points exactly.

  • 01.02.2013 1:22 PM PDT

I like Halo games, nuff said.

I don't know if your points have been talked about or not, but I have noticed a few fallacies in your post.

So, most of what I know is from Thursday War (and Halo 4)

Posted by: commander tempu
1. I don't think the Coveys would just forget how to make ships. High Charity is gone but even the Prophets or Elites are not foolish enough to have a back up on there home planets.


1. Actually, the Elites have very little capacity to build ships after the Great War. They lost the Engineers, and it is stated that they can barely repair their own ships, and are certainly in no position to rebuild their fleet. Also the prophets were basically ousted from Elite politics, they have no contact with them, and they don't follow them anymore.

2. Besides if i were a alien race who had ties to the Covys i would have factories and not to mention space docks.

2. As in point 1, the Elites (I don't know about the brutes) did not have the capacity to build new ships, and were just to keep the ones they already had running.

3. It would be impossible to arm every soldier and make ships with out them. Even a few were featured as multi player maps in Halo 3 or was it Reach.

3. I think the weapons were mostly supplied by the prophets, but I don't really have anything to say here.

4. Also having automated factories floating around and ammo dumps makes sense. Not to mention stashes for Covy factions currently. Covys love to scavenge forerunner tech and incorporate it into there arsenal

4. Not sure what you meant by floating factories, but I do know that the "Covies" did not as a whole like to scavenge forerunner tech. The Elites were very much against this practice, because they respected everything that had affiliation to the gods and didn't want to defile it.

5. Unless 343i changed that i would think it would be silly and does not make any sense at all. Every army or navy must have logistics. Covys would have lost steam during the War three years in with out some sort of supply chain.

5. In the Thursday War, they said that their supply lines were managed by the prophets. The independant factions of the Covenant are no longer working together. The Jackals went back to be pirates, the Elites are largely confined to their home world, and I don't know about the Brutes. They are really quite seperate.

6. Also allot of Covy tech is modular. In a warrior like society they might not completely understand it but they can have science lances study it.

6. Covenant technology is adaptive, not innovative, they copy, not improve.

7. Soldiers in the field know how to take care of wepons. Covys just get a new one if its defective. They don't have mechanics per se but everything is made at factories so mostly they do not feel the need to repair anything.

7. Their supply lines were severely compromised. They have fewer supplies but in the Thursday War, it appears they still have many weapons stored. Also, the Engineers repaired everything for them, it did break.

8. Ships are modular fallowing Forerunner specs. So they can easily replace a damaged section or jettison it if nessary.

8. Although they may be modular enough to jettison sections (seen in Legends), they could simply repair or replace them anymore.

9. I think they are about quarter strength from pre war totals. It would be a good guess. I can see the brutes just suffering but as for the Elites they are well supplied.

9. I think it would be a lot lower, the elites apparently only have about a half dozen ships left (ONI keeps track of most, if not all of them), and several were destroyed in the assault on Vadam. They have very little strength left (don't know about the brutes)

Other factions it depends on if they are being supplied who has control that sort of thing.

10. True

  • 01.02.2013 1:54 PM PDT

I like Halo games, nuff said.


Posted by: grey101
Plasma weaponry doesn't really give them an edge.



Sorry, What?

In First Strike (or maybe another), when the ship Master Chief was on collided with the Covenant ship, Cortana clearly stated the ship's plasma cannons were a huge advantage to the ship, and when she focused the plasma with the UNSC ships's MAC, it was a deadly force.

  • 01.02.2013 2:01 PM PDT


Posted by: grey101

1. The amount of losses the covenant were taking is rather unacceptable. The last time i did the math both side lost around 2,000 ships. How is the idea weird when you think it is perfectly ok?


Can you tell us how did you do the math?
Can you do a math on how many losses the UNSC had?
Can you do a math on how many ships the Covenant had at the end of the war vs the UNSC?


Cole alone is responsible for majority of the covenant loses and chief is right behind him. two people Did more damage to the covenant than the covenant did to us. Clearly that is an issue.


Wait.... are you saying 117 took down a lot of ships?
I confess that i did not read all of the novels and comic books so out of this 2,000 taken down.... how many did 117 destroy?


It was clearly stated in FS that the covenant emulate not innovate which the humans do. Meaning they just crudely copied forerunner tech and though that alone was enough to give them supremacy. But they don't understand the technology nor do they use it efficiently. Which is what screwed them over.


What does this have to do with anything? They tech was better, that's the point. And at the end of the way they STILL have it and STILL grossly outnumber what the UNSC has.


2.We are talking about ship engagements, the entire spartan III program was based off those actions but that doesn't represent what the UNSC was doing as a whole. You act like everybody knows they were sending 3-6 year olds to their deaths which isn't true. The war was based off navel engagements not land ones, hence why john and the other spartans felt so worthless during the battle of reach.


What does everyone knowing anything have to do with this conversation? So reply to the goofiest things, man.


And you might want to retract that statement since no spartan in reach completed a suicidal attack. somebody had to stay on the ship to activate the "bomb" because it was messed up, nothing about bravado. Carter had to crash into the pelican because there wasn't any other way to bypass it not to mention he was dying.

2 out of 6 isn't half nor were their deaths suicidal in the way you are trying to make it


Original Noble 6 also died in a suicidal attack.

And sorry but all of that are suicidal tactics.


3. Sit down and publicly explain why plasma is inherently better than ballistics. It doesn't have anything to do with halo and this forum had this talk about 3 years ago.


If it doesnt have to do with Halo ....... why is this even in the discussion? We are not talking about ACTUAL real life plasma we are discussing plasma weaponry from a video game.
This SHOULD be the end of this reply but the stuff you put down was too funny so i have to reply to it for kicks.



First off you can see plasma traveling through air/space which gets you the heads up to try getting out of the way. You can't see a bullet flying through the air and in space you would only see missiles and a laser depending.


Last time i checked Spartans are the only folks that could come close to NEO to evading something traveling seriously fasts so seeing a little ball glowing doesnt automatically save you.

By the way even in war soldiers use these things call tracers which are bullets that show their paths. You see a little glowing thing fly through the air...so yeah.

Not only that but soldier can tell a lot of info based on sound alone so seeing a bullet isnt really the first thing that warns some one.


If i shoot you in the arm with a plasma rifle the arm will be gone, catheterized, and you wouldn't feel any pain because the limb was pretty much burned off.
Now shoot another person in the arm with a rifle and it gets messy. You have to worry about if the bullet(s) hit a vein or passed cleanly. It honestly goes from there but generally if you get shot in the arm the only thing keeping you going on is adrenaline If we are talking about a warzone. Even then that might not be enough for you to ignore the damage to your arm and keep fighting. Sure you can switch arms but if you can't actually make that work then you will have to be patched up by a medical right there or taken off the filedp


So plasma sucks because it catheterized the wound?
So plasma puts little tubes in the wounds it causes? What's the purpose of that and where do these tubes come from?

Oh you mean cauterize wound. Oh yea, this is true, because a normal person is fine if their arm gets blown off because the wound is also burned in the process. They just keep going like the Black Knight, "Tis' but a scratch!"



THEN, if you want to be a badass and just completely ignore the wound. You have to worry about the bullet fragmenting in you arm or subserviently wherever it landed, which if not[/n] a good thing. You're a kid do you like iron man? Do you know [b]why he has the arc reactor in his chest? To keep the shrapnel from an explosion (which wasn't caused by plasma) away from his heart.


Iron man probably wouldnt be Iron man with plasma weaponry cause he would have been stickied..... so he would be deadman.

Ground wise it is factual that Ballistics would be a better choice. In space it doesn't even make a difference with the hull plating the UNSC has. The main reason it was an issue was because the UNSC doesn't but it's ship with redundancies and how the ships are designed. Regardless of what is being used generally any significant damage anywhere to a UNSC ship is a problem. The covenant on the other hand can seriously drop more than half of the ship and be perfectly fine.

So it was a problem....


In the books we see countless times that other UNSC ships will rush towards the plasma torpedoes to block them form the main fleet. Can you rush towards a MAC round to take the blow? No, because you can't see it nor react fast enough to do anything about it.


Why didnt you compare the UNSC weapons to the best Covenant weapons? Isnt that strange? I think you did this to try to make your point but you forgot that other people can, you know, point out this fault in your argument.

By the way, what ships are you talking about in this example? Cause if it was a smaller Covie ship vs a larger UNSC ship, you know, i guess the UNSC could take a bit more damage.



4.What exactly are you talking about by "stealth"? Because you aren't saying or elaborating on it other than saying that one word as if i am suppose to know what you are talking about. The only time the covenant use stealth is with ossoona's which are purely for stealth recon or recovery. Spec ops elite again aren't much since the UNSC has Thermal imagery and can easily detect that.


The only major stealth moment the covenant truly had was with the crazy ass elites in Headhunters, which has yet to be explained. So state what you are talking about instead of a single word.


Oh nothing, you win.
Celebrate.
Good times.
Come on.



5. Halo CE is tricky because in the original book the covenant were already there It was the UNSC randomly showing up that surprised them and made them wonder if we followed them. So you might want to give another example as speed was only relevant in the rate the covenant could attack.


Let me get this straight............... you are questioning the continuity of Halo Combat Evolved?

I....i..... really?


6. Are you stupid? The spartans and there allies were outnumber [n]by the thousands[/b] and you are seriously telling me that them holding off for a few days doesn't represent my point that mindless rushing with numbers doesn't give you an advantage?


Yes.... because the number DIDNT matter AT ALL in this battle. Not only that but the were SEVERAL tactics used in that battle the Greeks didnt just stay there and held like in the movie which seems to be your point of reference.

And none of that has any place in these space battles where there arent any choke points.


7. If you are using wikipedia as source then you are the fool here. My grandfather was in WW2 and he made it clear to me that sometimes they couldn't even sleep because they just keep getting rushed and rushed and rushed With all the old japanese stuff he preserved from some of the men he killed personally I don't think he was bluffing.

Especially when he had a few medals and i come from a military family. So what the hell are you laughing at about my statement since it is fully accurate.


Sorry but your gramp's statement could not be any less accurate of a statement. Since, you know, it has basically NO information about the enemy forces at all except that.... there were there and they attacked.

How about we actually get some info from some history books or places which some more reliable information. And yes that means Wiki, not that i actually used it.

  • 01.02.2013 2:44 PM PDT

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: SOME cGUY789

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: SOME cGUY789
...As far as I know the US usually outnumbered Japan in battles


Yet i just wiki the battle my grandfather was talking about

Look at the combat loses for the japanese and then the allies.


Yeah US outnumbered them by a small amount yet still cause far more damage to their forces? Number aren't what decided that though it was the mentality and fighting style of the forces . Americans would be more focused on trying to survive the battle while Japanese soldiers would throw anything they could into it in a bid for victory. Hence why their soldiers died in droves while the US' forces did not.



Huh?


The japanese lost nearly 3 times as much as the allied forces did so i don't know where you see the USA outnumbering them.

The reasons do matter. He said they weren't able to sleep because they were constantly being attacked. I will believe what he told me before anybody on the internet that isn't a WW2 vet.


Dude.... from the wiki article YOU linked

US Strength

183,000[1]
Casualties and losses
12,513 killed
38,916 wounded,
33,096 non-combat losses
Total: 84,570

Japan Strength
120,000
Casualties and losses
About 95,000+ killed
7,40010,755 captured
Total: 105,755+

Dont look at just at the people dying look at the troop total.
People dying doest not equal troop strength that just means the people that died.

  • 01.02.2013 2:57 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: civilwargeeky

Posted by: grey101
Plasma weaponry doesn't really give them an edge.



Sorry, What?

In First Strike (or maybe another), when the ship Master Chief was on collided with the Covenant ship, Cortana clearly stated the ship's plasma cannons were a huge advantage to the ship, and when she focused the plasma with the UNSC ships's MAC, it was a deadly force.


Page number?

I have the book in PDF and searching for "Plasma" didn't show anything like that. All i found was this


"We have intact ship-scale plasma weapons and new reactor
technologies," Cortana continued. "Imagine if every ship could
maneuver with pinpoint precision in Slipspace." She paused.
"The UNSC could be just as effective in space as you are in
ground engagements. We could actually win this war."

  • 01.02.2013 3:03 PM PDT


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: SOME cGUY789

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: SOME cGUY789
...As far as I know the US usually outnumbered Japan in battles


Yet i just wiki the battle my grandfather was talking about

Look at the combat loses for the japanese and then the allies.


Yeah US outnumbered them by a small amount yet still cause far more damage to their forces? Number aren't what decided that though it was the mentality and fighting style of the forces . Americans would be more focused on trying to survive the battle while Japanese soldiers would throw anything they could into it in a bid for victory. Hence why their soldiers died in droves while the US' forces did not.



Huh?


The japanese lost nearly 3 times as much as the allied forces did so i don't know where you see the USA outnumbering them.

The reasons do matter. He said they weren't able to sleep because they were constantly being attacked. I will believe what he told me before anybody on the internet that isn't a WW2 vet.


At the onset of the battle I mean we had pretty even amounts of forces both in the 1000,00 thousands. But i never tried to say the over-numbering played into it at all I was saying it was the mentality of the soldiers that played into it. The Japanese were on their last legs at that point they were making a last stand and constant attacks were part of that.

  • 01.02.2013 3:17 PM PDT

I am alpha, i am omega.

I am the last of the primes.

Grey did you just say Covie battle armour is brittle and on the same level of Titanium A?

Don't hunters also wear battle armour that is the same as the ones the starships use?

Now correct me if I'm wrong but that -blam!- is pretty hardcore and almost invincible against unsc firepower minus that of power weapons or tanks....

And don't scarabs also use that armour, and didn't a marine in halo 2 say how 50 cals and rockets didn't do a thing???

  • 01.02.2013 3:19 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

About naval loses and stuff, I did something like this a while back. This is for the Covenant, and it is an approximate number from the battles we have had so far. It's obviously not exhaustive until someone tells us that there are no more other battles to name. The number of Covenant ships before the war is still out of our Reach. That being said I'm not too content in getting overly involved in this discussion, so I'll just leave this here:

~ Chi Ceti: 1
~ Second Battle of Harvest: 1
~ Alpha Aurigae: 12
~ Harvest Campaigns: At least 1
~ XI Bootis A: 8
~ Groombridge-1830: 3
~ First Battle of Arcadia: 1 (perhaps 2)
~ The Rubble: 1
~ 18 Scorpii: 1
~ Psi Serpentis: 300
~ Algolis: 1
~ The Package: 1
~ TORPEDO: 7
~ Sigma Octanus IV: 3
~ Deliver Hope Trailer: 1
~ UPPERCUT: 2
~ Reach: 210
~ Line Installation 1-4: ~12
~ Alpha Halo: Unknown. At the end of CE, Cortana says "An entire armada obliterated".
~ Aftermath of Alpha Halo: 7
~ Second "Battle" of Reach: 20
~ Eridanus Secundus: 1
~ FIRST STRIKE: 485, UH
~ Earth: (Much) Greater than 15.
~ Cleveland: 1
~ Onyx: 54
~ Joyous Exultation: "Hundreds". Two massive combined fleets numbering in the hundreds, 60% wiped out.
~ The Ark: 30

Total that we know: ~ 1180 + numbers from Joyous Exultation + Earth + Alpha Halo

That's just Human caused ones. Stuff to do with the Great Schism and afterwards I've left out. Probably very close to 2000 I would say, but not over it.

The number the UNSC had before the war is 2000. (It comes from the Reach Data Pads with a bit of number crunching) The approximate number of vessels that the UNSC lost you could probably get by going through a list of the battles on Halopedia and adding them up. That's what I did originally for this one.

  • 01.02.2013 3:28 PM PDT

I am alpha, i am omega.

I am the last of the primes.

Also you earlier post about Plasma vs Ballistic is soo wrong.

A plasma round hitting a person in the arm won't cause them much pain or do anything else??? Bull-blam!- as not only would the plasma splash from the impact go onto your body or other parts, there will also be burns where the plasma was almost in contact with flesh, not only that but you now have major burning of your skin and tissue which is now in your blood stream, further more you've also got to worry about infections from the burning and by the gods you will be horrible pain, try pouring very hot lava on your arm at 2000C and tell me you won't feel any pain...

  • 01.02.2013 3:49 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

can you tell us how you write a english?


1.The math was crude But i added up all this ship numbers I could find on both sides getting a total. Then i took a count for the number of ships lost in each battle.

The numbers were close. Obviously there was a large margin of error but better than nothing. I left high charity out of it since the exact number of ships protecting it was never stated. I did count the 500 ships lost during FS which.

It seriously isn't hard to do just time consuming. If you "want to do a math" then you can do it yourself and post what you got. since i did mine about 2 years ago.


2. I am talking about in general. Even though John has destroyed more covenant ships than majority of the UNSC troops.


3.Um, that is the entire theme the covenant is based off of and in so the point. They have better tech but don't understand it which is why they don't use it efficiently. The reason the UNSC did so well was because they had to make up for their deficit with tactics.


4. 3/7 isn't half and only one of those was a suicidal tactic.

Jorge's death wasn't, Carter wasn't as it was the only way.


5. You say plasma is better than ballastics but when i ask you to explain you say it doesn't have to do with halo. Right.


6. cauterized Is why i typed but it was auto-corrected.

I didn't say plasma suck i am saying it isn't any better than ballistics just because it is plasma.

Plasma can't cause shrapnel which probably kills as much people as direct gunfire does.

There wouldn't be any pain because your arm isn't there.
If my arm were to be cut off with a plasma sword and have an immense amount of heat quickly applied to stop the bleeding i would be fine.

Getting all the shrapnel out of an arm from a bullet shattering in it is extremely difficult.



7. No, he wouldn't be iron man because a plasma grenade doesn't cause too much if any shrapnel.


8.lol what? Lets look at the weaponry of the standard ships of each faction which is the CCS for the covenant and the Frigate for the UNSC.


The CCS has

Pulse lasers
plasma torpedos
energy projectior

The Frigate has
Point defense guns
Archer missiles
Mac


Just looking at that they pretty much have the exact same armaments just different in style.




Both point defense guns can destroy ships if in range
-----

The match between archer missiles and plasma torpedo's Is rather even since both of them can destroy ships on their own.But this round goes to the missiles.

The missiles make up for their weakness in power with numbers.

The torpedoes however need a section of shielding to be dropped in order be fired. Which is a major drawback the UNSC as exploited (TFoR,FS). There is a 3 second delay in-between firing, the turrets can overload,and they are unable be used on ground targets. All are issues the archer missiles don't have.
-----------------------------

I don't think i can compare the MAC VS the energy projector because (as i am forced to us halopedia) They don't make it clear on what it is. Apparently what the "sniper ship" was using was an energy projector along with "Shadow's intent" which makes sense based on freds line saying big ships have them. At the same time it says the grav lift is the energy projector,as well as whatever is under the "head" of the CCS ship.
I can't compare it if i don't know exactly what it is and what the most standard settings for it's usage are. Though the only reason MAC rounds were rather inefficient was because of the shields not because they didn't do damage to the ship.



9. Are you new here? There has always been an issue with that because in "The Flood" the covenant are already there while another covenant force follows the PoA there. We have talked about it like for ten years.


"They must have followed one of our ships. The culprit will be found and
put to death at once,......

"That is very unlikely, Ship Master. We doubt the humans have the means to
follow one of our vessels through a jump. Even if they do, why would they
send only a single cruiser? Is it not their way to drown us in their own
blood? No, we think it's safe to surmise that this ship arrived in the system
by accident."


Page 5.


10.

Are you kidding me? The main reason they picked that exact location was so they could hold the line without too much effort and to draw the enemy in which they knew outnumbered them.


I love how you want to say numbers didn't matter then and tactics were used yet you seem oblivious to the fact that the covenant tried to use their numbers as a tactic.

11.

Yet during this entire argument i have been the one looking through all the information, going back to the books, and showing support for my side. So you can't talk about "accurate statements" when you do the same thing you are accusing him of doing.


I personally don't care for anybody on the internet thinks that doesn't have ties to the military. I will always trust what a solider that was there said happen over the media,internet, and government.

[Edited on 01.02.2013 7:20 PM PST]

  • 01.02.2013 4:08 PM PDT

I like Halo games, nuff said.


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: civilwargeeky


Page number?

I have the book in PDF and searching for "Plasma" didn't show anything like that. All i found was this


"We have intact ship-scale plasma weapons and new reactor
technologies," Cortana continued. "Imagine if every ship could
maneuver with pinpoint precision in Slipspace." She paused.
"The UNSC could be just as effective in space as you are in
ground engagements. We could actually win this war."


Yes, it was indeed in First Strike. It was the section in which the Gettysburg became fused with the Ascendant Justice. Wiki: UNSC Gettysburg. You can see the source pages at the bottom. If I remember correctly, Cortana used the Gettysburg's MAC cannon to focus the Plasma from the Ascendant Justice and use it to their advantage. Therefore plasma is a great edge because it more effective than a MAC.

  • 01.02.2013 9:23 PM PDT

I like Halo games, nuff said.

Another thing I found to highlight the effectiveness of plasma was this:
Page 211


She took the initiative and fired at the closest four cruisers.
Laser-fine plasma lanced from her turrets, burned though
the Covenant shields, and split open their hulls. When the superheated
gas came in contact with the atmosphere inside the
ships, plastic, flesh, and metal caught fire and roiled throughout
their interiors.
Two of the targeted cruisers immediately detonated as the
plasma beams found the reactors. Billowing clouds of vaporized
metal mushroomed across the night and obscured her from the
advancing ships.


Whereas on Harvest, Cole and his battlegroup had a very tough time taking down Covenant ships, and I know from descriptions of weapons and their damage that the MACs installed in ships through most of the war took several shots to pierce through covenant shields. If that doesn't convince you that plasma was a very effective tool in the human-covenant war, then I don't know what will.

  • 01.02.2013 9:33 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


took several shots to pierce through covenant shields.[b] If that doesn't convince you that plasma was a very effective tool in the human-covenant war, then I don't know what will.[/quote]


You guys aren't understanding the point and fact i am making.

The issue we had when fighting them in direct combat was the shields because the time we spent trying to take those out they were killing us. Which is why several shields would fall just by trying to take the out.


You see how that [b]one
missile on "Dawn" crippled that ship? What about that single MAC round from the frigate destroying one in spartan ops?

Without shields the covenant ships aren't any stronger than ours are. I have never denied That the plasma wasn't strong just saying that it isn't any stronger than what the UNSC has.

A wave of plasma torpedos can take out a ship
A volley of archer missiles can take out a ship.

there isn't a difference.

  • 01.02.2013 9:38 PM PDT