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Subject: Navy People, Gather 'Round

Posted by: echo630
Posted by: Garem
Have fun killing and/or dying for your country! Good to know you did something with your life.

Ahoy! Another idiot!

Holy sh­it, we're jumping right into the name-calling part of the argument. I thought I'd have to sit through another three pages of your BS before you resorted to that.

So here we go: you're an uneducated young miscreant. Go back, slime! Your phony antics have no place here.

  • 12.29.2012 2:10 AM PDT
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That's right. My plumage is brighter than yours.

Posted by: Jiggydiggydoo

Posted by: echo630
Posted by: Garem
Have fun killing and/or dying for your country! Good to know you did something with your life.


Ahoy! Another idiot! Please review my conversation with the Tool, it will catch you up to speed.

Chaos: you really are taking so much for granted. Vietnam is irrelevant to this decision. And yes, I understand that our government orders its military to do some terrible things sometimes. I'm an intelligent guy, I considered this all for a year before I joined. Don't jump to stupid conclusions.


It sounded to me like he just meant it in a respectful way. Like how people say they'll die for their country. He's just saying that there's killing for your country as well.


I considered that for a second, but I really thought it was just sarcasm. Most people who enter the Navy will neither kill nor die for their country. Offering those two possibilities up right out the gate, followed by the next sentence, just struck me as slightly offensive. If he says he meant otherwise, though, I do apologize to him.

Garem: I told you to read the conversation and catch yourself up to speed. I've already given a good part of my argument, I just wasn't going to reiterate it.

[Edited on 12.29.2012 2:12 AM PST]

  • 12.29.2012 2:11 AM PDT

**Devil's advocate of the Flood. My posts may or may not represent my personal opinion, I just enjoy disagreeing with people. None of my posts are representative of the official view of the Navy or any government agency.

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Posted by: Ark Chaos

Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey

Posted by: Ark Chaos
In Vietnam they killed children.


Please tell me how those crimes are relevant.
You said they have an obligation to uphold the constitution, and disobey lawful orders. They've forced soldiers to do it before, and are probably willing to force it again. With today's technology they can very easily keep people from knowing.


Forced them? Violent crimes like that were due to people being pushed to the limit of their psyche...living in mud, eating nothing on good days and leaves and paper on bad days, seeing their friends die around them...it's completely irrelevant to the OP.

  • 12.29.2012 2:11 AM PDT
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Posted by: echo630
Posted by: Jiggydiggydoo

Posted by: echo630
Posted by: Garem
Have fun killing and/or dying for your country! Good to know you did something with your life.


Ahoy! Another idiot! Please review my conversation with the Tool, it will catch you up to speed.

Chaos: you really are taking so much for granted. Vietnam is irrelevant to this decision. And yes, I understand that our government orders its military to do some terrible things sometimes. I'm an intelligent guy, I considered this all for a year before I joined. Don't jump to stupid conclusions.


It sounded to me like he just meant it in a respectful way. Like how people say they'll die for their country. He's just saying that there's killing for your country as well.


I considered that for a second, but I really thought it was just sarcasm. Most people who enter the Navy will neither kill nor die for their country. Offering those two possibilities up right out the gate, followed by the next sentence, just struck me as slightly offensive. If he says he meant otherwise, though, I do apologize to him.


Well looks like you were probably right...

  • 12.29.2012 2:12 AM PDT

ITT: If you disagree with the OP, you're a tool.

  • 12.29.2012 2:13 AM PDT


Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey

Posted by: Ark Chaos

Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey

Posted by: Ark Chaos
In Vietnam they killed children.


Please tell me how those crimes are relevant.
You said they have an obligation to uphold the constitution, and disobey lawful orders. They've forced soldiers to do it before, and are probably willing to force it again. With today's technology they can very easily keep people from knowing.


Forced them? Violent crimes like that were due to people being pushed to the limit of their psyche...living in mud, eating nothing on good days and leaves and paper on bad days, seeing their friends die around them...it's completely irrelevant to the OP.
Part of the crew; part of the ship.

  • 12.29.2012 2:13 AM PDT
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That's right. My plumage is brighter than yours.

Posted by: Ark Chaos

Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey

Posted by: Ark Chaos

Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey

Posted by: Ark Chaos
In Vietnam they killed children.


Please tell me how those crimes are relevant.
You said they have an obligation to uphold the constitution, and disobey lawful orders. They've forced soldiers to do it before, and are probably willing to force it again. With today's technology they can very easily keep people from knowing.


Forced them? Violent crimes like that were due to people being pushed to the limit of their psyche...living in mud, eating nothing on good days and leaves and paper on bad days, seeing their friends die around them...it's completely irrelevant to the OP.
Part of the crew; part of the ship.


I don't get it--is your argument now about guilt by association? I could form a decent argument about how most citizens would be guilty as well. And you know that you can refuse to follow orders which are unjust and might be considered a crime against humanity, right? There is this famous psychological experiment by Stanley Milgram that concludes just that: if you read the entirety of the study, people are LESS likely to follow orders when an authority tries to force them to do it. People have freedom to disobey.

Garem: Chaos is a tool because his reasoning is toolish. You're an idiot because you missed out on all the argument beforehand and then made the same stupid type of remark. I'm not throwing around ad hominems here; there is plenty of reason to go around.

[Edited on 12.29.2012 2:18 AM PST]

  • 12.29.2012 2:16 AM PDT

**Devil's advocate of the Flood. My posts may or may not represent my personal opinion, I just enjoy disagreeing with people. None of my posts are representative of the official view of the Navy or any government agency.

Non Sibi Sed Patriae
Homework questions? Forget the Flood, join The Academy.
I've got a fan!


Posted by: Ark Chaos
Are you under the impression you've accomplished something here?

  • 12.29.2012 2:17 AM PDT


Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey

Posted by: Ark Chaos
Are you under the impression you've accomplished something here?
More than you know.

  • 12.29.2012 2:18 AM PDT

Posted by: echo630
Garem: Chaos is a tool because his reasoning is toolish. You're an idiot because you missed out on all the argument beforehand and then made the same stupid type of remark. I'm not throwing around ad hominems here; there is plenty of reason to go around.

I read all of the "argument", and still said what needed to be said. Whenever you enter the military, you have a chance of killing another person. Considering the fact that we're in places we shouldn't be in, you would essentially be killing innocents.

  • 12.29.2012 2:21 AM PDT


Posted by: echo630
Chaos is a tool because his reasoning is toolish.
Great descriptive powers. Tool is a nice band.

  • 12.29.2012 2:23 AM PDT
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That's right. My plumage is brighter than yours.

Posted by: Garem
Posted by: echo630
Garem: Chaos is a tool because his reasoning is toolish. You're an idiot because you missed out on all the argument beforehand and then made the same stupid type of remark. I'm not throwing around ad hominems here; there is plenty of reason to go around.

I read all of the "argument", and still said what needed to be said. Whenever you enter the military, you have a chance of killing another person. Considering the fact that we're in places we shouldn't be in, you would essentially be killing innocents.


Of course you have the chance, you're in the military. But the chance is small--and you DO have a choice when it comes down to it. Situations are variable and must be judged with the best intelligence when the time comes. I won't mow down citizens and little kids, but I also don't deny that some people do that. That's not my training, and that's not my temperament--I'm not enlisting with some power issues, or sadistic tendencies, or sociopathic tendencies. I know who I am and I have made an adult, educated life decision. To have to defend that decision for two pages is ridiculous. Take it from me, I've mulled this over once or twice in my head, and I know what I'm getting into.

I mean, would you LIKE me to show you the list of Navy enlisted jobs? Cooks and boatswain mates and nukes and linguists and corpsmen aren't exactly trained to kill people, you know. A lot of the Navy jobs out their are support jobs, defensive jobs. Unless you go special ops, it's unlikely that you'll have an offensive type job.

[Edited on 12.29.2012 2:28 AM PST]

  • 12.29.2012 2:26 AM PDT

Posted by: echo630
I won't mow down citizens and little kids

I respect what you're trying to do here. I really do. But the truth is that if your commanding officer points at a four year old girl and says "kill her", you have to kill her. Not only does your trigger finger belong to Uncle Sam, but the mind that controls it does, as well.

  • 12.29.2012 2:28 AM PDT


Posted by: Garem
Posted by: echo630
I won't mow down citizens and little kids

I respect what you're trying to do here. I really do. But the truth is that if your commanding officer points at a four year old girl and says "kill her", you have to kill her. Not only does your trigger finger belong to Uncle Sam, but the mind that controls it does, as well.
You can say you will disobey an order if you feel it is wrong. They still don't care. They will jail you if they want, for as long as they want, for whatever reason they want.

  • 12.29.2012 2:31 AM PDT
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That's right. My plumage is brighter than yours.

Posted by: Garem
Posted by: echo630
I won't mow down citizens and little kids

I respect what you're trying to do here. I really do. But the truth is that if your commanding officer points at a four year old girl and says "kill her", you have to kill her. Not only does your trigger finger belong to Uncle Sam, but the mind that controls it does, as well.


They don't stick electrodes in you and force you to shoot--you may be "compelled" to shoot, but you can still refuse and are allowed due process of law. That's the way it is. Up above I mentioned the Milgram experiment, and that is very relevant here: people are less likely to obey orders if they are told that they HAVE to follow them, rather than if they are told that they OUGHT to follow them, or that it would be in their best interests to follow them.

And Chaos, while that's not exactly true, it still brings me back to what I said earlier: I know this. I am an adult who is willing to take responsibility for his life decisions, even if that means taking punishment. I'm not going to avoid the Navy just because there is a rare chance that I will have to spend some time in the brig and maybe be court martialed.

[Edited on 12.29.2012 2:34 AM PST]

  • 12.29.2012 2:32 AM PDT
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i am the navy seals top sniper i have 300+ confirmed kills

  • 12.29.2012 2:33 AM PDT


Posted by: echo630
They don't stick electrodes in you and force you to shoot--you may be "compelled" to shoot, but you can still refuse and are allowed due process of law. That's the way it is. Up above I mentioned the Milgram experiment, and that is very relevant here: people are less likely to obey orders if they are told that they HAVE to follow them, rather than if they are told that they OUGHT to follow them, or that it would be in their best interests to follow them.

And Chaos, while that's not exactly true, it still brings me back to what I said earlier: I know this. I am an adult who is willing to take responsibility for his life decisions, even if that means taking punishment. I'm not going to avoid the Navy just because there is a rare chance that I will have to spend some time in the brig and maybe be court martialed.
I don't think you get it. They could kill you if they wanted to. Covering up secrets and all. Plus life is hard for dishonorably discharged. It's like having a felony. It's harder to get places in life if have that on your record.

  • 12.29.2012 2:37 AM PDT
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That's right. My plumage is brighter than yours.

Posted by: Ark Chaos

Posted by: echo630
They don't stick electrodes in you and force you to shoot--you may be "compelled" to shoot, but you can still refuse and are allowed due process of law. That's the way it is. Up above I mentioned the Milgram experiment, and that is very relevant here: people are less likely to obey orders if they are told that they HAVE to follow them, rather than if they are told that they OUGHT to follow them, or that it would be in their best interests to follow them.

And Chaos, while that's not exactly true, it still brings me back to what I said earlier: I know this. I am an adult who is willing to take responsibility for his life decisions, even if that means taking punishment. I'm not going to avoid the Navy just because there is a rare chance that I will have to spend some time in the brig and maybe be court martialed.
I don't think you get it. They could kill you if they wanted to. Covering up secrets and all. Plus life is hard for dishonorably discharged. It's like having a felony. It's harder to get places in life if have that on your record.


....who exactly do you think they are going to try and make me kill that would actually make them want to take MY life? Your fears are slightly off kilter with reality.

And once again, yes, I know what dishonorable discharges entail. I refer you back to the big R-word: responsibility.

  • 12.29.2012 2:40 AM PDT

Posted by: AquaBlader
Soon to be breaking news:


US Coast Guard prepares for massive rescue mission after Iranian fleet sinks off shore. Reports say a small thunderstorm caused most of the ships to simply...fall apart.

Do some of you guys really need to be such -blam!-s?

OT: I've been thinking about joining either the Navy or the Air Force. Not sure what I'm gonna do once I'm there.

  • 12.29.2012 2:44 AM PDT

**Devil's advocate of the Flood. My posts may or may not represent my personal opinion, I just enjoy disagreeing with people. None of my posts are representative of the official view of the Navy or any government agency.

Non Sibi Sed Patriae
Homework questions? Forget the Flood, join The Academy.
I've got a fan!


Posted by: Garem
But the truth is that if your commanding officer points at a four year old girl and says "kill her", you have to kill her.


You're a bit of a moron, aren't you?

  • 12.29.2012 2:46 AM PDT
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This is why you don't make threads about joining the military in the flood.

  • 12.29.2012 2:49 AM PDT

Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey

Posted by: Garem
But the truth is that if your commanding officer points at a four year old girl and says "kill her", you have to kill her.


You're a bit of a moron, aren't you?

It's true, though.

  • 12.29.2012 2:52 AM PDT
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Posted by: Garem
Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey

Posted by: Garem
But the truth is that if your commanding officer points at a four year old girl and says "kill her", you have to kill her.


You're a bit of a moron, aren't you?

It's true, though.


That's not even the slightest bit true...

  • 12.29.2012 2:54 AM PDT

**Devil's advocate of the Flood. My posts may or may not represent my personal opinion, I just enjoy disagreeing with people. None of my posts are representative of the official view of the Navy or any government agency.

Non Sibi Sed Patriae
Homework questions? Forget the Flood, join The Academy.
I've got a fan!


Posted by: Garem
Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey

Posted by: Garem
But the truth is that if your commanding officer points at a four year old girl and says "kill her", you have to kill her.


You're a bit of a moron, aren't you?

It's true, though.


Except it's 100% untrue.

  • 12.29.2012 2:54 AM PDT
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That's right. My plumage is brighter than yours.

Posted by: milla da killa
This is why you don't make threads about joining the military in the flood.


I'll take responsibility for that, too :)

  • 12.29.2012 2:55 AM PDT

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