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Subject: Should psychopaths really go to prison?
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Well, here we are. I guess that it was destined to come to this.

Posted by: Master Chef
Posted by: Recon Number 54
Completely up to the society that has to deal with the issue.
I understand the appeal of a relativistic stance on crime and psychology, it ties in nicely with anthropology and respect for cultures unlike one's own. However, with scientific advances being made in neurophysiology, I think a more satisfying result can be achieved; one that addresses intent more holistically.

I disagree. For example (in addition to the Norway incident), the nation of Iran considers "same sex snugglebunnies" to be abherent behavior and imposes capital punishment.

Now, that is extreme, but it allows other nations/cultures to see and properly understand the values and choices within that other culture. What they consider to be unacceptable to their social order and how they choose to deal with incidents that do not comply with their worldview.

Are they "wrong"? As an external observer, I would say that they are. But do THEY consider themselves to be flawed in their views and actions? Not at all. In fact, they probably look at other societies and cultures and make "man are they messed up" decisions about how those other cultures draw the lines around acceptable/unacceptable and decide how their society will respond to anything they deem unacceptable.

I am not copping out to a relativistic stance because it is easy. I am saying that social organizations and rules are subjective and can't help but be arbitrary.

Personally, if someone is unable or unwilling to conform or comply with a social norm and presents themselves as a clear and mortal danger to that society? Humanity has had no problem with eliminating such "threats to order" in the past and I doubt that any major change to that is soon to come.

  • 01.01.2013 1:51 PM PDT

Controlling fission events without incident since May, 2012.


Posted by: Recon Number 54
I am not copping out to a relativistic stance because it is easy. I am saying that social organizations and rules are subjective and can't help but be arbitrary.

Personally, if someone is unable or unwilling to conform or comply with a social norm and presents themselves as a clear and mortal danger to that society? Humanity has had no problem with eliminating such "threats to order" in the past and I doubt that any major change to that is soon to come.


I disagree that social organizations are arbitrary. They follow contrasting channels, and lead to distinctly different cultures, but they are constructed on exceedingly similar individual behaviors. You might see an example of this point in our abilities to rationalize our own culture as normal, while another is bizarre, despite how inherently bizarre our own might be. What I am getting at is that there isn't pure, objective truth in justice or culture, but by applying modern (and fundamental) scientific study of animal behavior, the human brain, and sociology, a set of agreeable principles can be reached, and some boundaries can be drawn.

These principles would be those that agree on a progressive stance for our species. Cannibalism could be a norm, but it isn't a stable one, since a species that eats itself, in large quantities, isn't going to make the existential cut. Similarly, other behaviors and cultural norms in societies may exist, but are not inherently stable. They should be recognized as untenable, and dealt with.

[Edited on 01.01.2013 2:02 PM PST]

  • 01.01.2013 2:02 PM PDT
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Well, here we are. I guess that it was destined to come to this.

Posted by: Master Chef
Posted by: Recon Number 54
I am not copping out to a relativistic stance because it is easy. I am saying that social organizations and rules are subjective and can't help but be arbitrary.

Personally, if someone is unable or unwilling to conform or comply with a social norm and presents themselves as a clear and mortal danger to that society? Humanity has had no problem with eliminating such "threats to order" in the past and I doubt that any major change to that is soon to come.


I disagree that social organizations are arbitrary. They follow contrasting channels, and lead to distinctly different cultures, but they are constructed on exceedingly similar individual behaviors. You might see an example of this point in our abilities to rationalize our own culture as normal, while another is bizarre, despite how inherently bizarre our own might be. What I am getting at is that there isn't pure, objective truth in justice or culture, but by applying modern (and fundamental) scientific study of animal behavior, the human brain, and sociology, a set of agreeable principles can be reached, and some boundaries can be drawn.

These principles would be those that agree on a progressive stance for our species. Cannibalism could be a norm, but it isn't a stable one, since a species that eats itself, in large quantities, isn't going to make the existential cut. Similarly, other behaviors and cultural norms in societies may exist, but are not inherently stable. They should be recognized as untenable, and dealt with.

And yet (in one form or another) the ownership of other human beings has persisted and survives to this very day, despite all of our recent (historically speaking) collective statements of how "wrong and immoral and why didn't we know better?"

  • 01.01.2013 2:08 PM PDT

Controlling fission events without incident since May, 2012.


Posted by: Recon Number 54
And yet (in one form or another) the ownership of other human beings has persisted and survives to this very day, despite all of our recent (historically speaking) collective statements of how "wrong and immoral and why didn't we know better?"


I didn't set the timeframe for tenability. A cultural norm could stand for a month, years, centuries, or millenia; think thermodynamics and kinetics of chemical reactions.

What is important is that something like ownership of humans has been quelled in the vast majority of the planet. In a high density region of slavery, it has become unstable (for a variety of reasons), and victims have enough mass and momentum to usurp that behavior.

  • 01.01.2013 2:14 PM PDT
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Well, here we are. I guess that it was destined to come to this.

Posted by: Master Chef
Posted by: Recon Number 54
And yet (in one form or another) the ownership of other human beings has persisted and survives to this very day, despite all of our recent (historically speaking) collective statements of how "wrong and immoral and why didn't we know better?"
I didn't set the timeframe for tenability. A cultural norm could stand for a month, years, centuries, or millenia; think thermodynamics and kinetics of chemical reactions.

What is important is that something like ownership of humans has been quelled in the vast majority of the planet. In a high density region of slavery, it has become unstable (for a variety of reasons), and victims have enough mass and momentum to usurp that behavior.

But isn't it a little inconsistent to take both the long view (over time the inherent flaws in slavery will sort themselves out, it is inevitable) and the short view (we're learning so much about brain function that we can soon treat what we call "inappropriate actions")?

If you ask me, it's a bit arrogant to say "we've finally got it right here and now".

It's easy to look at "progress" as an inevitable "improvement from our previously flawed views", but it is hubris to think that our descendants will declare us "the moment that humanity finally got it right". They are just as likely to look at our efforts and chuckle at our innocence, ignorance and arrogance.

Brilliant series, by a brilliant man, making some very important points about worldviews. If you don't want to watch the whole thing, the opening "joke" makes an excellent point.

  • 01.01.2013 2:21 PM PDT

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