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  • Subject: A huge problem with this community
Subject: A huge problem with this community

The Forerunner, the Great Journey, and Heaven Theory

[Announcement Trailer] Halo: Forerunner

Posted by: Agustus
I lol'd at the absurd miscommunication that occurs whenever dibbs post something. Perhaps his brain is so highly evolved that he can no longer clearly communicate with lesser life forms, even among his own species.

Posted by: Recon Number 54
Posted by: DarkSunnyboy1
What Harlow wants.

Sure the kid wants to hug it. Until you tell him there's candy inside. Then he'll want the stick back.
Provided that this is an analogy for the community at large, who do I have to beat to death in order to get the "candy"?

  • 01.02.2013 1:07 PM PDT

"History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it."
-Sir Winston Churchill

The Secret Society 95% of activity is me, I could use some help.

Because you know all about being welcoming and understanding.

K

  • 01.02.2013 1:07 PM PDT
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If you assign every letter of the alphabet a number, a is 1, b is 2, etc., and you take all of the values of the word "MATH", and add them, you get 42. So math is the meaning of life, the universe, and everything.


Posted by: WyIdfyre
I know that trying to defend oneself, even in a civil fashion usually makes things worse. It's obvious that the only people with the power here are the ones who just don't care how obnoxious, tactless and downright blatantly insulting they are, and it doesn't seem that much gets done about those people in particular.
I apologize for jumping in here, and not addressing the rest of your post, but in any of these cases have you notified a mod? Surely they would be helpful, most of the time.

  • 01.02.2013 1:11 PM PDT
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Posted by: CrazyT

Posted by: WyIdfyre
I know that trying to defend oneself, even in a civil fashion usually makes things worse. It's obvious that the only people with the power here are the ones who just don't care how obnoxious, tactless and downright blatantly insulting they are, and it doesn't seem that much gets done about those people in particular.
I apologize for jumping in here, and not addressing the rest of your post, but in any of these cases have you notified a mod? Surely they would be helpful, most of the time.
What's the point? We don't know how long it will take for a mod to be online or if they'll even act on it, and even if anything gets done, chances are an alt will pop up after said mods are absent.

[Edited on 01.02.2013 1:13 PM PST]

  • 01.02.2013 1:12 PM PDT

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Posted by: WyIdfyre
It's obvious that the only people with the power here are the ones who just don't care how obnoxious, tactless and downright blatantly insulting they are, and it doesn't seem that much gets done about those people in particular.
Who are we talking about here? Rude people, or mods themselves?The way your post is worded, it almost seems like you're implying that "the only people with the power" are in fact the individuals being obnoxious.

  • 01.02.2013 1:14 PM PDT
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BC1096
One does not choose a destiny, his destiny is bestowed, shaped and formed, from the soul.


Posted by: WyIdfyre
Posted by: CrazyT

Posted by: WyIdfyre
I know that trying to defend oneself, even in a civil fashion usually makes things worse. It's obvious that the only people with the power here are the ones who just don't care how obnoxious, tactless and downright blatantly insulting they are, and it doesn't seem that much gets done about those people in particular.
I apologize for jumping in here, and not addressing the rest of your post, but in any of these cases have you notified a mod? Surely they would be helpful, most of the time.
What's the point? We don't know how long it will take for a mod to be online or if they'll even act on it, and even if anything gets done, chances are an alt will pop up after said mods are absent.


IP bans?

  • 01.02.2013 1:14 PM PDT
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Real account.

Join me as we make new friends from different communities!

If you assign every letter of the alphabet a number, a is 1, b is 2, etc., and you take all of the values of the word "MATH", and add them, you get 42. So math is the meaning of life, the universe, and everything.


Posted by: WyIdfyre
What's the point? We don't know how long it will take for a mod to be online or if they'll even act on it, and even if anything gets done, chances are an alt will pop up after said mods are absent.
The point is, if the members are not reporting something that you think is punishable, you can always PM a mod. You have that ability. Sure, not always reliable, but reporting isn't perfect either. But by what you've told me, you don't have to answer my last question. I already have my answer.

  • 01.02.2013 1:21 PM PDT
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Well, here we are. I guess that it was destined to come to this.

Posted by: WyIdfyre
It's not really an issue with heated debates or discussions getting out of hand, it's more centered on the people who just completely lack common courtesy, decency and manners in favour of pouring out their poor judgement and attitudes knowing full well that they won't face any lasting repercussions or motive to change.

Because if we're supposed to be open-minded and tolerant, we also have to allow people to have the right to "poor judgement and attitudes". To me, there is very little that I consider a sacred cow and while it may be rude to fart in church, it should never be illegal. (bad metaphor? too bad)

I am not about to become the "this person's worldview is wrong and so they are out" police. It's a slippery slope that I won't even come near.

Yes, that means that I will allow people to express intolerant, unfair, unkind, immature, or otherwise "unacceptable to the enlightened" views. As long as HOW they go about it doesn't cross the line (again, it's my line, and that's just the breaks).

The Riddle Scale (when the initial subject of its focus is removed and made more generic about any worldview/opinion) is a tool that cuts both ways.

If you encounter someone who is (on any subject) exhibiting something between "revulsion & pity" have you ever then examined your own reaction to THEM? If you are returning their reaction with the same in return (you feel revulsion or pity for them and their ignorance), then how are you doing anything better than they are?

People have used the "well, THEY are wrong/bad/stupid, so they don't deserve consideration" argument since time began. It's been used against people like you, like me, like any member who is reading this... and the best/only way to break that is to not return "you're bad" with "no U".

In other words, there are going to be rude kids here. ___-phobes and haters of every ilk. When they go too far, the community and the moderators can/do respond. The fact that some members of the community want the line drawn elsewhere is a perfectly acceptable notion, but in the end, I draw my lines where I see them, and while I can accept, respect and even am willing to discuss (civilly) with anyone who disagrees. I have to be true and honest to myself in order to be capable of explaining/justifying my own actions.

  • 01.02.2013 1:24 PM PDT

"History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it."
-Sir Winston Churchill

The Secret Society 95% of activity is me, I could use some help.

You know what would really help?

Not giving the nasty people the recognition they want!

All of this is a show to see how many people they can upset, and getting 400 reply threads and threads like this is giving them EXACTLY what they they want!

Sure there is a problem with the people themselves but the bigger problem lies within the people that aid in their quest for infamy.

If someone comes onto a site to anger people then threads like these just keep them coming back. It's not rocket science! You can't ban the internet! But you sure as Hell can ignore them. Suffocate them in their own nastiness! Someone who is not acknowledged by anyone may as well not exist, and that goes triple for the anonymity of the internet.

Thank you, and good day.

  • 01.02.2013 1:25 PM PDT

If we disagree, it's nothing personal, opinions are opinions.
Antagonizing me to build a false sense of worth is so damn cute.

Brighten your day with science.

Posted by: Recon Number 54
a sacred cow

Recon is Indian.

  • 01.02.2013 1:29 PM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"


Posted by: Recon Number 54
People have used the "well, THEY are wrong/bad/stupid, so they don't deserve consideration" argument since time began. It's been used against people like you, like me, like any member who is reading this...


I agree. And others can call me wrong or insensitive or short-sighted, but I think the overwhelming problem is that most people who respond poorly to these actions simply don't have the life experience to know better. No, I am not specifically talking about age, but I'm not saying it isn't a factor.

I feel comfortable and confident suggesting this because I know I was like that. I had to defend myself, retaliate, and make an absolute ass out of myself. The only way I learned to stop was to be scolded (via private messages) and simply learn and experience in time.

It's not something that can be combated, just tolerated and managed. Everyone could do well reading about and thinking over The September that Never Ended and understanding what that really means about us, the internet, and our situation here.

  • 01.02.2013 1:30 PM PDT

It's an off-topic forum and one that is very fitting for Bungie. The trolls and the hostility that they have would be best left there as opposed to other forums, which I think people can agree is contained quite well. Go to Flood and ask if they would want the Flood to be removed, I'm sure almost all of them will say no (with the obligatory troll posts as well.)

Also, I've lurked the flood enough to know that you incite anger among many posters. Your OP itself is strangely hostile and suspicious.

[Edited on 01.02.2013 1:32 PM PST]

  • 01.02.2013 1:31 PM PDT

Please stop complaining about the 'death of a loved one' it's my job. They probably deserved it anyways. Here's a warning, if you keep making pentagrams out of the neighbors livestock I will personally come to your house and kill everyone you love. Now leave me alone, I got to get back to work.
~M.D~

But in all honesty the best way to change anything you don't like is by example. If you and a bunch of your Bungie buddies go on the flood and give good advice and be genuinely nice to people,it will catch on.

  • 01.02.2013 1:41 PM PDT
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Well, here we are. I guess that it was destined to come to this.

For those who would ask us to "clean up based on not just HOW someone posts, but what they post", here's an example.

Personally, I have a low threshold and tolerance (I am almost regretting this before I type it) for anti-semitism, holocaust denial and (what I see as) historical apologism/revisionism.

Does that mean that I should (or would) permaban anyone who makes a "Hitler wasn't all bad" thread or uses terms like "Zionism" as if it explains everything? I could. And I would be able to explain/justify my actions, probably even get them to comply with the letter of the ToU and CoC.

But I realize that I would be letting what I know to be a personal hot-button affect my performance and judgement that is (hopefully) respected because I make every effort to NOT be subjective, or to inject/project my own personal views into my actions.

Would these forums be "better off" without jerks who think that "Jew" is a verb, that there are evil moneychangers looking to rule the world and that the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is anything other than a hateful piece of fiction? I would say that they (and the community) would be. But I know, recognize and accept that I have a less-than-dispassionate reaction to such things and so, I do my best to temper and even perhaps over-compensate before I act/react.

Would I even have to consider or go to such lengths in a private group? Nope. Especially if it were mine. I would ban such fools so fast their heads would spin. My "tolerance and acceptance" has its limits too. But in the public forums, I do my utmost to not project my own bias and prejudices into my actions/reactions.

Did I just explain things better, or make them worse?

  • 01.02.2013 1:42 PM PDT

Posted by: FALSE R3ALITYx
Bricypoo's custom user title = Ultra Lame Thread Maker


Posted by: True Underdog
Only after we ban Bricypoo.

I agree that people should be nicer, and more courteous. But I also agree that especially on controversial subject as long it isn't breaking a rule everyone should be able to give his opinion. No matter how completely stupid the person's opinion seems to you.

I think Recon explains it pretty well.

Posted by: Recon Number 54

[Edited on 01.02.2013 1:47 PM PST]

  • 01.02.2013 1:46 PM PDT

If we disagree, it's nothing personal, opinions are opinions.
Antagonizing me to build a false sense of worth is so damn cute.

Brighten your day with science.

Recon explains everything well.

  • 01.02.2013 1:50 PM PDT
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LeaveItYeah


Posted by: iTz Hermione
the flood forum is fine the way it is. People aren't always going to agree on everything. I don't mind the blunt attitude that the flood has.

If a thread looks dumb in the flood I do this thing called: avoid it.




Posted by: DarkBen64
My only suggestion would be appoint a mod with a European timezone.
I like the sound of this.

;)

All I got from reading this thread is:

Posted by: Telec
ITT: people need to grow a thicker skin


[Edited on 01.02.2013 2:25 PM PST]

  • 01.02.2013 1:57 PM PDT
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Die Hard MkIV Toyota Supra Fan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
OOOOHHHHHHHHHH

Posted by: Recon Number 54
In other words, there are going to be rude kids here. ___-phobes and haters of every ilk. When they go too far, the community and the moderators can/do respond. The fact that some members of the community want the line drawn elsewhere is a perfectly acceptable notion, but in the end, I draw my lines where I see them, and while I can accept, respect and even am willing to discuss (civilly) with anyone who disagrees. I have to be true and honest to myself in order to be capable of explaining/justifying my own actions.
I accept that, but what I am trying to say is that that outright hatred, with little to no civility behind it does not fall into a position that deserves respect in any way, in my opinion. It is explicitly stated in the rules that blatant disrespect is not tolerated, yet, as I mentioned, it's ALWAYS the moderators following a textual trail of destruction, usually after a thread has become a hot topic. Warnings and bans seem to be rarely issued except for extreme cases and, as I said, alts come back fairly quickly to do it all again in a different way.

Not trying to sound pompous and/or self entitled, and I'm not sure if I'm the only one thinking this, but I have to deal with these sorts of people outside of the internet almost daily. When I come here, I come here to wind down and attempt to enjoy some conversation. I don't appreciate some immature asshats instigating a witch hunt against me because somebody else merely mentioned me. Now obviously, this is an extreme example, but it happens literally every time I'm mentioned. I did mention this to moderators before, and was assured that such behavior was inappropriate and would be subject to moderator intervention from then on. Again, this "intervention" hasn't happened outside of the few hours it was worst. More to my point though, replace "me" with any sensitive or even irrelevant or repetitive subject and you have yourself most of the people involved in the same offenses repeatedly, split between alts and seemingly untouchable accounts.

As I said, there really doesn't seem to be any motive or repercussions for people voicing ill mannered thoughts or accusations (not necessarily opinions or viewpoints) to change their behavior. There's a difference between using a poor choice of words or manner to express a volatile opinion and just being offensive or insulting for the sake of it.

  • 01.02.2013 1:57 PM PDT

If only there was someone as egotistical and funny as my clone.


oh wait.


Posted by: Silentone2
Let me say this tenderly:

There's no way, whatsoever, to change this.

It isn't a problem.

And if I could give you some advice, it would be that, if you want a peaceful forum geared towards gentle discussion, the forums for a series of first person shooters popular with teenagers probably isn't the place to look.



Exactly, if you go here to have intellectual conversations; or try to make this place a much nicer atmosphere. You are going to fail.

  • 01.02.2013 2:03 PM PDT

Posted by: FALSE R3ALITYx
Bricypoo's custom user title = Ultra Lame Thread Maker


Posted by: True Underdog
Only after we ban Bricypoo.

That I disagee with, you don't have to make every last person on the site a nicer person. You don't have to force people to be nice to make a nicer atmosphere, you just have to control your actions. Actions speak louder than any words ever could. If a few people were to take a stand for the community to help bring community and nice atmosphere it won't automatically fail.

Some of the people who are helped by these few will learn by example and help others. It is a chain reaction that in the end could change the community for the better. Of course there will always be jerks, but you aren't trying to force them to be nice. You are just trying to make their screams quieter.

Posted by: the dark freckle

Posted by: Silentone2
Let me say this tenderly:

There's no way, whatsoever, to change this.

It isn't a problem.

And if I could give you some advice, it would be that, if you want a peaceful forum geared towards gentle discussion, the forums for a series of first person shooters popular with teenagers probably isn't the place to look.



Exactly, if you go here to have intellectual conversations; or try to make this place a much nicer atmosphere. You are going to fail.

  • 01.02.2013 2:09 PM PDT

If only there was someone as egotistical and funny as my clone.


oh wait.

I was referring to the Flood to make that clear. Yes I agree that you don't have to force everyone to be nice, but I disagree that Floodians can control their actions. Because, quite honestly they can't. If actions speak louder than words, then why is the pen mightier than the sword? There might certainly be a few nice and thoughtful people in the flood, but for every nice person in the flood; there's thirty baby killers and rapists. You can't change the actions of a murderer (Unless by death.) You can certainly not change the actions of someone behind an invisible wall, being able to talk about whatever they want, because they know that whatever they do, it won't come back and bite them in real life. You can't kill the majority my friend.


Posted by: Bricypoo
That I disagee with, you don't have to make every last person on the site a nicer person. You don't have to force people to be nice to make a nicer atmosphere, you just have to control your actions. Actions speak louder than any words ever could. If a few people were to take a stand for the community to help bring community and nice atmosphere it won't automatically fail.

Some of the people who are helped by these few will learn by example and help others. It is a chain reaction that in the end could change the community for the better. Of course there will always be jerks, but you aren't trying to force them to be nice. You are just trying to make their screams quieter.

Posted by: the dark freckle

Posted by: Silentone2
Let me say this tenderly:

There's no way, whatsoever, to change this.

It isn't a problem.

And if I could give you some advice, it would be that, if you want a peaceful forum geared towards gentle discussion, the forums for a series of first person shooters popular with teenagers probably isn't the place to look.



Exactly, if you go here to have intellectual conversations; or try to make this place a much nicer atmosphere. You are going to fail.

  • 01.02.2013 2:17 PM PDT
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"I know not what weapons World War III will be fought with, but I do know that World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

-Albert Einstein


Posted by: Jiggleslinky
Because you know all about being welcoming and understanding.

K



QFT

But in all seriousness, it doesn't help.

  • 01.02.2013 2:28 PM PDT

Posted by: FALSE R3ALITYx
Bricypoo's custom user title = Ultra Lame Thread Maker


Posted by: True Underdog
Only after we ban Bricypoo.

Actually that is untrue, there are many occurrences of murders regreting their previous actions and changing their ways. I remember when a good friend of mine told me about his friend who killed his grandfather and was sentenced to life in prison. I would have said the samething, but the murder had counseling. (From someone I know) Who admitted that he regretted his actions and everyday he could take them back. But he didn't argue that he should be realized he stated he deserved what he got. But he would do is best to be a light in prison.

This long story just to explain that even a murder can change his ways, then it is quite possible for a floodian troll to change his ways. You shouldn't not try something just because it is hard or because it seems impossible. Sometimes you have to try to change things for the better even if it seems to me a waste of time.

Posted by: the dark freckle
You can't change the actions of a murderer (Unless by death.)

  • 01.02.2013 2:28 PM PDT

Posted by: Kurosaki_Kun

I know, right?
Jay acts like she's better than everyone else simply because she's a chick.
I hope she chokes to death.


Posted by: Recon Number 54

I am not here to protect each and every member's personal experience and make sure that they each feel comfy, safe and welcome. I can't do that.

I am here to make sure that the community as a whole is welcoming, friendly and open. That (IMO) means that we allow for a little "rough and tumble" exchange of views. Something gets TOO personal, too over the line (my line, not yours), then I act. But when I act, it is not to protect or defend the individual, but to act on behalf of the entire community and our hosts.
Interesting.

I've had moderators tell me that I should report harassment more often because they believe they have a responsibility to make the place safe, comfy, and welcoming, as it were, for everyone - even minorities like me.

But I suppose not all of you see it the same way.

  • 01.02.2013 2:33 PM PDT

Posted by: Kurosaki_Kun

I know, right?
Jay acts like she's better than everyone else simply because she's a chick.
I hope she chokes to death.


Posted by: Recon Number 54
For those who would ask us to "clean up based on not just HOW someone posts, but what they post", here's an example.

Personally, I have a low threshold and tolerance (I am almost regretting this before I type it) for anti-semitism, holocaust denial and (what I see as) historical apologism/revisionism.

Does that mean that I should (or would) permaban anyone who makes a "Hitler wasn't all bad" thread or uses terms like "Zionism" as if it explains everything? I could. And I would be able to explain/justify my actions, probably even get them to comply with the letter of the ToU and CoC.
Um...yes?

Anti-semitism is disgusting and vile, and incredibly hurtful to the people at whom it's directed. How is that not rule-breaking?

It has nothing to do with personal triggers - that's a very nasty form of bigotry and there's no reason why it should be allowed in any forum claiming to promote a healthy and welcoming community.

Same for any other kind of racism. Same for sexism. Same for transphobia. Same for people who pick on the disabled. It's not a difference of opinion, it's bigotry.

And as far as I know, that's against the rules.

  • 01.02.2013 2:39 PM PDT