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Subject: So Dark Souls II

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Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey

Posted by: Etrnlknightmare

Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey

Posted by: jew man man

Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
A dev said they want to have the game be as successful as Skyrim. All rumors of decreased difficulty stem from that irrelevant statement.


As successful as Skyrim, they'd better be basing that on sales alone.


Sales, popularity, replayability, etc. Maybe even a decreased difficulty option, who knows. The point is that they want the game to be competitive, and when you've got tons of players that just give up because the game is too difficult, you're not setting yourself up for a successful sequel. Frankly, I think fans needs to get off their high horse and realize the incredible difficulty detracts from some people's experience and enjoyment, and an extra option for less difficulty doesn't affect their own gameplay at all.

I literally cannot imagine an easy mode in the Dark Souls as I know it. I don't know how it would work. Decreasing enemy health is all i can think of, and that would just unbalance the game.
To remove the difficulty of the game is to remove the very soul of it, and anyone who doesn't like the game enough to play it doesn't deserve a say in how the next game should be.


See: high horse comment.

Regardless of whatever you wish for, the director of Dark Souls 2 knows what he's doing. He already stated that the game will retain it's difficulty, while changing itself to be more accessible in ways such as adding a tutorial, without adding an easy difficulty.

  • 01.03.2013 5:46 AM PDT

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Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey

I literally cannot imagine an easy mode in the Dark Souls as I know it. I don't know how it would work. Decreasing enemy health is all i can think of, and that would just unbalance the game.
To remove the difficulty of the game is to remove the very soul of it, and anyone who doesn't like the game enough to play it doesn't deserve a say in how the next game should be.[/quote]

See: high horse comment.


Well, I tried to ignore this :/

I don't know if I consider it a high horse sort of mentality. For me at least, I'm not saying some are like that. Perfect example is Diablo 2 / 3 (or other point/click loot grinders). Hardcore Mode. Hardcore players have an extreme elitist mentality that I've found with those games. While not a perfect example, I feel it works mostly. Some think that playing those games in HC is literally the only way to play it. While I very much agree that HC mode is much more exhilarating, challenging and rewarding, it's not for me.

The reason, however I feel is different as to why that's not for me, ye hard games are. I don't enjoy losing all my time spent due to things that can sometimes be completely out of my control. Lag, real life crisis, ridiculous RNG mob that is the perfect storm, etc.

I don't like to consider myself a "Demons/Dark souls is a fun hard game and if you don't like it you're a filthy casual" sort of person. However I DO feel that constantly pandering to less "hardcore" players has an effect on games as a whole, as it does on movies.

Perhaps my opinion is very jaded due directly to movies. Movies are watered down and crunched as much as possible to slide under that PG-13 rating to maintain maximum demographic acceptance. Is this for the viewers? No. Is this to stay true to the script/book/concept? No. It's for more money. It's to line the pockets of the producers and all the investors.

So with games, I just dislike that people feel that they are "owed" an easier option. You should relish in the fact that this game is going to challenge you. It's refreshing. It is so much more rewarding to die over and over straining your brain to find that one thing you're not doing correctly.

I just feel like it lets games be so much more than entertainment. You can learn a lot of life skills when games really challenge you. You learn not to just expect things to be handed to you for minimal effort and I just feel that's what has causes the latest generation of never happy always complaining gamers that have caused many many games to rethink their design process and water down certain elements to conform to the new standards of expectation.

  • 01.03.2013 5:51 AM PDT
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I remember them saying they wanted to make the game more accessible, which does concern me. The best meaning I can draw from that is that they will explain the combat system more at the start of the game, so you don't have to open a wiki guide to figure out what the hell is going on, which I guess I can't argue with, but I'm not entirely happy that they're taking a more handholdey approach.

They also said the game will be as hard as it's predecessor, which is something. Though I hope there's an option to make it harder. They need to challenge veterans of the series as well, after all.

Also heard it will have vehicles, which could go either way, really. Hopefully it won't detract from the solid on foot combat the series is known for, and hopefully it will be challenging in a fair way, rather than having to battle with bad physics and awkward controls.

Now, as for some features that I think would be cool:

-Fully fledged co-op mode. As in you and a buddy can play through the whole game together, sharing supplies and whatnot, with the game scaling up its difficulty accordingly. The single player would still give you that feeling of isolation, and the co-op would still be hard as -blam!-. It would just be a different type of challenge, possibly with bosses requiring both players to take down.

-Better NG+. Instead of just giving enemies more health, it would be interesting if they did something along the lines of the master quest in Ocarina of Time 3D, moving traps and items around, making platformer segments (e.g. the ones in Sens Fortress) harder, and speeding up enemy reaction times. Generally just subtle changes making the game go from challenging to damn near impossible, like in Super Meat Boy.

-No stand-alone multiplayer. It seems most single player games these days fall into the trap of adding a competitive multiplayer where it really isn't needed (ME3, Dead Rising 2, etc) and it usually results in the story portion of the game being shorter or worse off generally.

  • 01.03.2013 5:56 AM PDT
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Posted by: Darkm0d

Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey

I literally cannot imagine an easy mode in the Dark Souls as I know it. I don't know how it would work. Decreasing enemy health is all i can think of, and that would just unbalance the game.
To remove the difficulty of the game is to remove the very soul of it, and anyone who doesn't like the game enough to play it doesn't deserve a say in how the next game should be.[/quote]

See: high horse comment.


Well, I tried to ignore this :/

I don't know if I consider it a high horse sort of mentality. For me at least, I'm not saying some are like that. Perfect example is Diablo 2 / 3 (or other point/click loot grinders). Hardcore Mode. Hardcore players have an extreme elitist mentality that I've found with those games. While not a perfect example, I feel it works mostly. Some think that playing those games in HC is literally the only way to play it. While I very much agree that HC mode is much more exhilarating, challenging and rewarding, it's not for me.

The reason, however I feel is different as to why that's not for me, ye hard games are. I don't enjoy losing all my time spent due to things that can sometimes be completely out of my control. Lag, real life crisis, ridiculous RNG mob that is the perfect storm, etc.

I don't like to consider myself a "Demons/Dark souls is a fun hard game and if you don't like it you're a filthy casual" sort of person. However I DO feel that constantly pandering to less "hardcore" players has an effect on games as a whole, as it does on movies.

Perhaps my opinion is very jaded due directly to movies. Movies are watered down and crunched as much as possible to slide under that PG-13 rating to maintain maximum demographic acceptance. Is this for the viewers? No. Is this to stay true to the script/book/concept? No. It's for more money. It's to line the pockets of the producers and all the investors.

So with games, I just dislike that people feel that they are "owed" an easier option. You should relish in the fact that this game is going to challenge you. It's refreshing. It is so much more rewarding to die over and over straining your brain to find that one thing you're not doing correctly.

I just feel like it lets games be so much more than entertainment. You can learn a lot of life skills when games really challenge you. You learn not to just expect things to be handed to you for minimal effort and I just feel that's what has causes the latest generation of never happy always complaining gamers that have caused many many games to rethink their design process and water down certain elements to conform to the new standards of expectation.
Agree completely.

  • 01.03.2013 5:58 AM PDT

**Devil's advocate of the Flood. My posts may or may not represent my personal opinion, I just enjoy disagreeing with people. None of my posts are representative of the official view of the Navy or any government agency.

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I understand all of that; if that reply was to me, it was unnecessary.

The point I'm making is that Dark Souls 2 is not going to be competitive on the market if it does not encourage a wider fan base; this includes gamers that, as you mentioned, simply don't have the ability to grind through problems until they get it, and just want to enjoy the gameplay and story.

Dark Souls 2 needs to have a less difficult option for gameplay, or it will be a failure.

  • 01.03.2013 5:58 AM PDT
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Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
I understand all of that; if that reply was to me, it was unnecessary.

The point I'm making is that Dark Souls 2 is not going to be competitive on the market if it does not encourage a wider fan base; this includes gamers that, as you mentioned, simply don't have the ability to grind through problems until they get it, and just want to enjoy the gameplay and story.

Dark Souls 2 needs to have a less difficult option for gameplay, or it will be a failure.
Dark Souls already had a less difficult option by letting somebody join your game and help you fight a boss. I don't see why that isn't enough.

  • 01.03.2013 6:03 AM PDT

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Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
I understand all of that; if that reply was to me, it was unnecessary.

The point I'm making is that Dark Souls 2 is not going to be competitive on the market if it does not encourage a wider fan base; this includes gamers that, as you mentioned, simply don't have the ability to grind through problems until they get it, and just want to enjoy the gameplay and story.

Dark Souls 2 needs to have a less difficult option for gameplay, or it will be a failure.


It was not directly at you, it was before your edit also, post edit I wanted to add some stuff but I can do that here.

I completely agree with the point that it needs to be "easier" in ways to be more successful, however, I'd rather see a game fail in popularity, but be the exact game the dev's wanted. Even though I'd love for some indie studio's to get massive amounts of money to stay afloat in doing what they do.

I know that the Hunger Games movie would have probably made at least HALF of it's total profits if it was rated R (which it very much should have been rated if they did it true to the book) but obviously it wasn't. And we got a crappy watered down movie adaptation that sucked.

When you start catering to the masses, it's just sad, especially for the core fan's. We know that the game/studio/production we love needs maximum exposure to become a blockbuster, yet the cost of that is losing the true identity of the product.

It's just a sucky situation all around that people cannot simply accept, appreciate and learn to love harder games in general.

  • 01.03.2013 6:03 AM PDT

This world wants to drag you down... And the weight, that guilt they want to hang around your neck, you don’t have to carry it one more step. You think they won’t let you rest, but it’s not up to them. It never was.

You wouldn't have to make the game easier to make it more accessible. Admittedly I haven't played the game (yet) but from my understanding the game has little to no tutorial whatsoever, and the UI elements and game mechanics aren't well explained (i.e. stats).

Simply improving and building these elements would make the game more approachable without sacrificing diffculty... Unless the difficulty lies in not knowing what the -blam!- you're doing.

  • 01.03.2013 6:06 AM PDT

If they stick to the philosophy of Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, the game will be a great success financially. If they try to break away from that tradition to make the game more linear, easy or 'casual' it will be a failure. It simply isn't a game that will be attractive to the majority of the casual market even with simpler gameplay.

The idea of Dark Souls getting more sales and popularity through easier gameplay is akin to Susan Boyle getting more popularity through producing a Dubstep album.

  • 01.03.2013 6:17 AM PDT

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Posted by: ToastyWaffles
Unless the difficulty lies in not knowing what the -blam!- you're doing.


Well that's certainly part of it imo. It's very stoic. It's unforgiving and sometimes cruel. One of my fondest early memories from the game is that very early on in the first level you have a T intersection. To the right, an enemy you've not yet encountered, so of course, you should be curious. He pretty must instantly kills you. You have no real warning of his difficulty, the game is very "Ok, let me try this, death, alrighty, lesson learned!" I don't feel that happens much anymore in games.

It's sort of like old school Simon Says. You eventually have to start memorizing every encounter to overcome the challenges.

  • 01.03.2013 6:19 AM PDT
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Posted by: ToastyWaffles
You wouldn't have to make the game easier to make it more accessible. Admittedly I haven't played the game (yet) but from my understanding the game has little to no tutorial whatsoever, and the UI elements and game mechanics aren't well explained (i.e. stats).

Simply improving and building these elements would make the game more approachable without sacrificing diffculty... Unless the difficulty lies in not knowing what the -blam!- you're doing.
Possibly, but if you explain too much you may lose some of the immersion. I'm all for explaining some things better, but they shouldn't start adding things like quest markers or mini-maps. Figuring out where to go is one of the great things about the game (Though it's not why the game is difficult). Especially when literally all you have to go on is a near useless, vague as hell clue about having to ring a bell in a place you've never heard of.

  • 01.03.2013 6:20 AM PDT

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Make Lemonade!


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Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey

Posted by: jew man man

Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey

Posted by: Darkm0d
I think they alluded it MIGHT be less difficult, and that makes me really worried.


A dev said they want to have the game be as successful as Skyrim. All rumors of decreased difficulty stem from that irrelevant statement.


As successful as Skyrim, they'd better be basing that on sales alone.


Sales, popularity, replayability, etc. Maybe even a decreased difficulty option, who knows. The point is that they want the game to be competitive, and when you've got tons of players that just give up because the game is too difficult, you're not setting yourself up for a successful sequel. Frankly, I think fans needs to get off their high horse and realize the incredible difficulty detracts from some people's experience and enjoyment, and an extra option for less difficulty doesn't affect their own gameplay at all.


Yes, but why play Dark Souls at all then? Sure, it doesn't detract from OUR experience, but it certainly detracts from the experience the developers intended. If hard, yet reasonable and fair games aren't your thing, then don't play them. Simple as that.

You would be stupid to deny that none of the atmosphere of Dark Souls comes from the difficulty. It's the whole point, the reason I purchased the game at all. A difficulty slider is not needed. The game, and the intended experience would be utterly ruined and thus playing the game at all would be pointless.

  • 01.03.2013 6:54 AM PDT

^ Indeed.

The difficulty is the element that defines Dark Souls. It is its heart and soul. Changing it would literally destroy the entire experience one gets playing the game. It would defeat the entire purpose of its existence.

[Edited on 01.03.2013 7:28 AM PST]

  • 01.03.2013 7:27 AM PDT

B.Net's Finest Grammar Troll!


Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
I understand all of that; if that reply was to me, it was unnecessary.

The point I'm making is that Dark Souls 2 is not going to be competitive on the market if it does not encourage a wider fan base; this includes gamers that, as you mentioned, simply don't have the ability to grind through problems until they get it, and just want to enjoy the gameplay and story.

Dark Souls 2 needs to have a less difficult option for gameplay, or it will be a failure.

lol no. As far as I know, both Dark and Demon's Souls sold pretty good, if anything the difficulty and old-school "we don't hold your hand through the whole game" mentality is one of the things that skyrocketed the game's success. If we use your logic on this matter, Demon's Souls was to hard, and Dark Souls will be a failure without easy mode. The reason it's so good is because From hasn't sold out.

[Edited on 01.03.2013 7:34 AM PST]

  • 01.03.2013 7:33 AM PDT
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the will to win is the will to destroy

i want better jolly cooperation

  • 01.03.2013 7:35 AM PDT


Posted by: notfromphoenix
From hasn't sold out.


Huzzah! They havent sold themselves out!

Games really shouldnt have a diffculty setting.. They should have an organic difficulty, that you can make harder or easier by your own choice.

  • 01.03.2013 7:44 AM PDT

Do everyone a favor, get some intelligence, grow a set, bust a nut, and shut the fu­ck up.
Posted by: Anto91
you're retared for not knowing inside jokes
retard

If the make it easier for friends to find each other to co-op, it would be amazing alone, and up the difficulty when you co-op.

  • 01.03.2013 7:50 AM PDT
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the will to win is the will to destroy


Posted by: capitonRender007
If the make it easier for friends to find each other to co-op, it would be amazing alone, and up the difficulty when you co-op.
that would be good

  • 01.03.2013 7:52 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

I honestly can't see true co-op working how would it honestly be scaled up?

All one person has to do is distract the boss while the other hammers the hell out of it, Attacks with a Great Dragon bow,or throws fire balls out the ass.

Yeah, i know we aren't sure what will actually be in the game (other then fire since it looks like that age) but you can see my point. The bosses would be far too easy with two people

  • 01.03.2013 7:52 AM PDT

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Posted by: grey101
I honestly can't see true co-op working how would it honestly be scaled up?

All one person has to do is distract the boss while the other hammers the hell out of it, Attacks with a Great Dragon bow,or throws fire balls out the ass.

Yeah, i know we aren't sure what will actually be in the game (other then fire since it looks like that age) but you can see my point. The bosses would be far too easy with two people

Bosses are already casual babby tho. (excluding Drake+Josh and 4 kings)

  • 01.03.2013 7:54 AM PDT

Do everyone a favor, get some intelligence, grow a set, bust a nut, and shut the fu­ck up.
Posted by: Anto91
you're retared for not knowing inside jokes
retard


Posted by: LocknLoader2K8

Posted by: capitonRender007
If the make it easier for friends to find each other to co-op, it would be amazing alone, and up the difficulty when you co-op.
that would be good


Apparently it was easy to find friends in demon souls, but i know it was a chore in dark souls.

  • 01.03.2013 7:56 AM PDT

Do everyone a favor, get some intelligence, grow a set, bust a nut, and shut the fu­ck up.
Posted by: Anto91
you're retared for not knowing inside jokes
retard


Posted by: The S bot 9000
4 kings



Dem bastards.

  • 01.03.2013 7:56 AM PDT

Do everyone a favor, get some intelligence, grow a set, bust a nut, and shut the fu­ck up.
Posted by: Anto91
you're retared for not knowing inside jokes
retard


Posted by: grey101
I honestly can't see true co-op working how would it honestly be scaled up?

All one person has to do is distract the boss while the other hammers the hell out of it, Attacks with a Great Dragon bow,or throws fire balls out the ass.

Yeah, i know we aren't sure what will actually be in the game (other then fire since it looks like that age) but you can see my point. The bosses would be far too easy with two people


You could already fight every boss with others, just usually random peoples, also you could run whole areas with a phantom random.

  • 01.03.2013 7:57 AM PDT
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the will to win is the will to destroy


Posted by: capitonRender007

Posted by: LocknLoader2K8

Posted by: capitonRender007
If the make it easier for friends to find each other to co-op, it would be amazing alone, and up the difficulty when you co-op.
that would be good


Apparently it was easy to find friends in demon souls, but i know it was a chore in dark souls.
i only ever found one dude who was going to fight the wolf with me (I forget it's name) he dropped like a lead turd right at the start of the fight leaving me to handle it but i eventually got taken down i never found anyone ever again after that.

  • 01.03.2013 7:58 AM PDT


Posted by: capitonRender007

Posted by: LocknLoader2K8

Posted by: capitonRender007
If the make it easier for friends to find each other to co-op, it would be amazing alone, and up the difficulty when you co-op.
that would be good


Apparently it was easy to find friends in demon souls, but i know it was a chore in dark souls.

It was, that was due to dedicated servers though. Hopefully in Dark 2 they have them over P2P, it worked a lot better.

I just hope this one is as polished as Demon's Souls all the way through. Dark Souls started off incredibly, but I thought the areas after Anor Londo besides the Painted World were all really lackluster compared to the early areas. The Lost Izalith in particular just feels lazy.

I also want weapon balance to be a bit better. A lot of the upgrade paths were kind of useless in Dark Souls last time I played. I don't know if it got fixed through the patches, but there was no reason to use anything but lightning or just +15.

Oh yeah, and a more polished covenant system would be great. Great concept, it just needs some work. They also need to just copy/paste the Old Monk boss fight from Demon's Souls to Dark Souls 2, that idea is too good to use just once.

Besides that, I think it's a bit early to be talking difficulty and whatnot. I'm a bit worried about the new director, but I want to see footage first.

  • 01.03.2013 8:02 AM PDT

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