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This topic has moved here: Subject: Absolute Zero minus 10 degrees... wait, wut?
  • Subject: Absolute Zero minus 10 degrees... wait, wut?
Subject: Absolute Zero minus 10 degrees... wait, wut?

Generalizations.
Helping idiots hate other idiots since people have existed.


Posted by: prometheus25

Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr
Everyone shut up and listen.

First, temperature is not a measure of atomic vibration. Your science teachers lied to you for sake of simplicity. The more accurate definition is the relationship between energy and entropy (randomness of a system).

Normally, adding energy to a system increases entropy; the atoms become more randomly distributed. Adding energy and increasing entropy = positive temperature.

HOWEVER, Some systems have a maximum limit to the energy they can hold. When you approach this limit, the systems actually start to LOSE entropy. Adding energy but decreasing in entropy = Negative temperature.

This system is still warmer than absolute zero. In fact, it is theoretically hotter than infinity.


Hmmm, I'm going with the thought that you heard this concept somewhere else and are simply assuming it applies here.


Why wouldn't it apply here? Makes sense when you think about Boltzmann.
Educate me plz

[Edited on 01.04.2013 10:39 AM PST]

  • 01.04.2013 10:37 AM PDT
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Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr
Everyone shut up and listen.

First, temperature is not a measure of atomic vibration. Your science teachers lied to you for sake of simplicity. The more accurate definition is the relationship between energy and entropy (randomness of a system).

Normally, adding energy to a system increases entropy; the atoms become more randomly distributed. Adding energy and increasing entropy = positive temperature.

HOWEVER, Some systems have a maximum limit to the energy they can hold. When you approach this limit, the systems actually start to LOSE entropy. Adding energy but decreasing in entropy = Negative temperature.

This system is still warmer than absolute zero. In fact, it is theoretically hotter than infinity.


said it better than I did.

  • 01.04.2013 10:38 AM PDT

I gaze upon the stars and see the majesty that is the universe.


EGO mos bulla astrum.

This is amazing.

  • 01.04.2013 10:43 AM PDT

Love metal? / Play an instrument?
Zuneman loves me

Posted by: Jesse Pinkman
You look like a handsome drug dealer


Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr
This system is still warmer than absolute zero. In fact, it is theoretically hotter than infinity.
So, it is behaving as if it were colder than absolute zero, without actually being so? Just trying to clarify.

  • 01.04.2013 10:44 AM PDT

Generalizations.
Helping idiots hate other idiots since people have existed.


Posted by: defenderofgo

Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr
This system is still warmer than absolute zero. In fact, it is theoretically hotter than infinity.
So, it is behaving as if it were colder than absolute zero, without actually being so? Just trying to clarify.


Instead of gaining entropy with more energy, it loses entropy with more energy. There are more high energy states than low energy states. This changes something called the "Boltzmann constant." The numerical value of this is changed so that, when plugged into the equations, the answer is negative.

The best way I can explain it is that it's a hiccup with the definition of Kelvin. If you redefined kelvin a different way, you wouldn't get this problem.

  • 01.04.2013 10:49 AM PDT
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Posted by: defenderofgo

Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr
This system is still warmer than absolute zero. In fact, it is theoretically hotter than infinity.
So, it is behaving as if it were colder than absolute zero, without actually being so? Just trying to clarify.


No.

  • 01.04.2013 10:50 AM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"


Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr

Posted by: prometheus25

Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr
Everyone shut up and listen.

First, temperature is not a measure of atomic vibration. Your science teachers lied to you for sake of simplicity. The more accurate definition is the relationship between energy and entropy (randomness of a system).

Normally, adding energy to a system increases entropy; the atoms become more randomly distributed. Adding energy and increasing entropy = positive temperature.

HOWEVER, Some systems have a maximum limit to the energy they can hold. When you approach this limit, the systems actually start to LOSE entropy. Adding energy but decreasing in entropy = Negative temperature.

This system is still warmer than absolute zero. In fact, it is theoretically hotter than infinity.


Hmmm, I'm going with the thought that you heard this concept somewhere else and are simply assuming it applies here.


Why wouldn't it apply here? Makes sense when you think about Boltzmann.
Educate me plz


If you read the actual Nature article, it says they use a combination of lasers and magnetic fields to hold the atoms in a stable lattice at near absolute zero temperatures. This isn't anything amazing, as it's SOP for this stuff. They then tweak the magnetic field in such a way that it would encourage the atoms to attract (meaning that, right when the field is changed, the atoms now have some potential energy. They have ability to move to a lower energy state/position). Simultaneously, the lasers they use are altered so that the atoms stay still in a more 'energetically favorable" configuration.

They don't offer a lot of details, but my understanding of the situation is that the photons from the laser bleed off this recently attained energy from the magnetic field switch. I could be mistaken, however.

  • 01.04.2013 10:55 AM PDT
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Posted by: prometheus25

Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr

Posted by: prometheus25

Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr
Everyone shut up and listen.

First, temperature is not a measure of atomic vibration. Your science teachers lied to you for sake of simplicity. The more accurate definition is the relationship between energy and entropy (randomness of a system).

Normally, adding energy to a system increases entropy; the atoms become more randomly distributed. Adding energy and increasing entropy = positive temperature.

HOWEVER, Some systems have a maximum limit to the energy they can hold. When you approach this limit, the systems actually start to LOSE entropy. Adding energy but decreasing in entropy = Negative temperature.

This system is still warmer than absolute zero. In fact, it is theoretically hotter than infinity.


Hmmm, I'm going with the thought that you heard this concept somewhere else and are simply assuming it applies here.


Why wouldn't it apply here? Makes sense when you think about Boltzmann.
Educate me plz


If you read the actual Nature article, it says they use a combination of lasers and magnetic fields to hold the atoms in a stable lattice at near absolute zero temperatures. This isn't anything amazing, as it's SOP for this stuff. They then tweak the magnetic field in such a way that it would encourage the atoms to attract (meaning that, right when the field is changed, the atoms now have some potential energy. They have ability to move to a lower energy state/position). Simultaneously, the lasers they use are altered so that the atoms stay still in a more 'energetically favorable" configuration.

They don't offer a lot of details, but my understanding of the situation is that the photons from the laser bleed off this recently attained energy from the magnetic field switch. I could be mistaken, however.


The fact that the atoms are attracted to each other means that the entropy is decreasing. That's exactly what he's saying.

  • 01.04.2013 10:57 AM PDT

Generalizations.
Helping idiots hate other idiots since people have existed.


Posted by: prometheus25

Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr

Posted by: prometheus25

Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr
Everyone shut up and listen.

First, temperature is not a measure of atomic vibration. Your science teachers lied to you for sake of simplicity. The more accurate definition is the relationship between energy and entropy (randomness of a system).

Normally, adding energy to a system increases entropy; the atoms become more randomly distributed. Adding energy and increasing entropy = positive temperature.

HOWEVER, Some systems have a maximum limit to the energy they can hold. When you approach this limit, the systems actually start to LOSE entropy. Adding energy but decreasing in entropy = Negative temperature.

This system is still warmer than absolute zero. In fact, it is theoretically hotter than infinity.


Hmmm, I'm going with the thought that you heard this concept somewhere else and are simply assuming it applies here.


Why wouldn't it apply here? Makes sense when you think about Boltzmann.
Educate me plz


If you read the actual Nature article, it says they use a combination of lasers and magnetic fields to hold the atoms in a stable lattice at near absolute zero temperatures. This isn't anything amazing, as it's SOP for this stuff. They then tweak the magnetic field in such a way that it would encourage the atoms to attract (meaning that, right when the field is changed, the atoms now have some potential energy. They have ability to move to a lower energy state/position). Simultaneously, the lasers they use are altered so that the atoms stay still in a more 'energetically favorable" configuration.

They don't offer a lot of details, but my understanding of the situation is that the photons from the laser bleed off this recently attained energy from the magnetic field switch. I could be mistaken, however.


Right. They tweaked the atoms to be in a more energetically favorable configuration. They added energy so the atoms would be in more high energy states than lower energy states.
AKA, adding energy but decreasing entropy. (a high energy state has a lower entropy than a low energy state)

[Edited on 01.04.2013 11:00 AM PST]

  • 01.04.2013 11:00 AM PDT

_____ ____(˜˜˜||˜˜˜˜||˜˜˜˜˜)_∏______
--------____.`=====.-.~:_______\___|==============[oo
|_|||___/___/_/~```|_|_|_|``(o)----------<)
Have Fai7h

My old Halo account: karsttheninja99

That is pretty cool

  • 01.04.2013 11:01 AM PDT

...woah. Those properties sound wack.

  • 01.04.2013 11:02 AM PDT
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Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr
Everyone shut up and listen.

First, temperature is not a measure of atomic vibration. Your science teachers lied to you for sake of simplicity. The more accurate definition is the relationship between energy and entropy (randomness of a system).

Normally, adding energy to a system increases entropy; the atoms become more randomly distributed. Adding energy and increasing entropy = positive temperature.

HOWEVER, Some systems have a maximum limit to the energy they can hold. When you approach this limit, the systems actually start to LOSE entropy. Adding energy but decreasing in entropy = Negative temperature.

This system is still warmer than absolute zero. In fact, it is theoretically hotter than infinity.
So this is a system where the second law of thermodynamics doesn't apply?

  • 01.04.2013 11:04 AM PDT

Generalizations.
Helping idiots hate other idiots since people have existed.


Posted by: tomgaz

Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr
Everyone shut up and listen.

First, temperature is not a measure of atomic vibration. Your science teachers lied to you for sake of simplicity. The more accurate definition is the relationship between energy and entropy (randomness of a system).

Normally, adding energy to a system increases entropy; the atoms become more randomly distributed. Adding energy and increasing entropy = positive temperature.

HOWEVER, Some systems have a maximum limit to the energy they can hold. When you approach this limit, the systems actually start to LOSE entropy. Adding energy but decreasing in entropy = Negative temperature.

This system is still warmer than absolute zero. In fact, it is theoretically hotter than infinity.
So this is a system where the second law of thermodynamics doesn't apply?


The 2nd law absolutely applies.

The OVERALL entropy of system and its surroundings at hand is increasing, per the 2nd law.
One part of the system can decrease in entropy while another part of the system increases in entropy. These atoms were merely one part of the whole system; some other part of the system was increasing in entropy as a result.

[Edited on 01.04.2013 11:20 AM PST]

  • 01.04.2013 11:19 AM PDT

If we disagree, it's nothing personal, opinions are opinions.
Antagonizing me to build a false sense of worth is so damn cute.

Brighten your day with science.

Posted by: Recon Number 54
Heisenberg

I love you Recon.

  • 01.04.2013 11:20 AM PDT

Generalizations.
Helping idiots hate other idiots since people have existed.


Posted by: DarkSunnyboy1
Posted by: Recon Number 54
Heisenberg

I love you Recon.


I'm not too certain about that.

  • 01.04.2013 11:23 AM PDT
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Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr

Posted by: tomgaz

Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr
Everyone shut up and listen.

First, temperature is not a measure of atomic vibration. Your science teachers lied to you for sake of simplicity. The more accurate definition is the relationship between energy and entropy (randomness of a system).

Normally, adding energy to a system increases entropy; the atoms become more randomly distributed. Adding energy and increasing entropy = positive temperature.

HOWEVER, Some systems have a maximum limit to the energy they can hold. When you approach this limit, the systems actually start to LOSE entropy. Adding energy but decreasing in entropy = Negative temperature.

This system is still warmer than absolute zero. In fact, it is theoretically hotter than infinity.
So this is a system where the second law of thermodynamics doesn't apply?


The 2nd law absolutely applies.

The OVERALL entropy of system and its surroundings at hand is increasing, per the 2nd law.
One part of the system can decrease in entropy while another part of the system increases in entropy. These atoms were merely one part of the whole system; some other part of the system was increasing in entropy as a result.
The lasers' entropy increases then?

  • 01.04.2013 11:29 AM PDT
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  • Fabled Legendary Member

Posted by: ImOnTheDole
Wasn't it a year ago we thought we'd beat the speed of light, and realized it was a loose wire?

The majority of physicists never thought it was likely.

  • 01.04.2013 11:30 AM PDT
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Well, here we are. I guess that it was destined to come to this.

Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr
Posted by: DarkSunnyboy1
Posted by: Recon Number 54
Heisenberg
I love you Recon.
I'm not too certain about that.

You can either know what I said, or what I intended. But never both at the same time.

  • 01.04.2013 11:31 AM PDT
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This Day is Going to Be Perfect


Posted by: Koolen
Science is also subject to changes in the course of history. Remember when windmills were considered witchcraft?

I do. Good times.

  • 01.04.2013 11:31 AM PDT

If we disagree, it's nothing personal, opinions are opinions.
Antagonizing me to build a false sense of worth is so damn cute.

Brighten your day with science.

Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr

Posted by: DarkSunnyboy1
Posted by: Recon Number 54
Heisenberg

I love you Recon.


I'm not too certain about that.

>.>
<.<

I loved Werner.

  • 01.04.2013 11:32 AM PDT

Generalizations.
Helping idiots hate other idiots since people have existed.


Posted by: tomgaz

Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr

Posted by: tomgaz

Posted by: oaklandp8ntbalr
Everyone shut up and listen.

First, temperature is not a measure of atomic vibration. Your science teachers lied to you for sake of simplicity. The more accurate definition is the relationship between energy and entropy (randomness of a system).

Normally, adding energy to a system increases entropy; the atoms become more randomly distributed. Adding energy and increasing entropy = positive temperature.

HOWEVER, Some systems have a maximum limit to the energy they can hold. When you approach this limit, the systems actually start to LOSE entropy. Adding energy but decreasing in entropy = Negative temperature.

This system is still warmer than absolute zero. In fact, it is theoretically hotter than infinity.
So this is a system where the second law of thermodynamics doesn't apply?


The 2nd law absolutely applies.

The OVERALL entropy of system and its surroundings at hand is increasing, per the 2nd law.
One part of the system can decrease in entropy while another part of the system increases in entropy. These atoms were merely one part of the whole system; some other part of the system was increasing in entropy as a result.
The lasers' entropy increases then?


I have no idea which exact particles increase in entropy. I'd have to be a wizard to tell you that.

[Edited on 01.04.2013 11:35 AM PST]

  • 01.04.2013 11:34 AM PDT

Oh my god. How can something have less than zero joules of energy!!!???

*Head explodes...*

  • 01.04.2013 11:36 AM PDT

Generalizations.
Helping idiots hate other idiots since people have existed.


Posted by: Mitochondrion
Oh my god. How can something have less than zero joules of energy!!!???

*Head explodes...*


Because your science teacher lied when they said " Zero kelvin = zero energy."

  • 01.04.2013 11:38 AM PDT
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Read the comments. Absolute zero still doesn't exist in this universe.

  • 01.04.2013 11:54 AM PDT

Well, once again, humans were wrong.

  • 01.04.2013 11:55 AM PDT