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Subject: The Return of the Council!

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I though it was a good idea when it was suggested and I still think its a good idea but I'm realistic and I know its never gonna happen. Bungie is NEVER going to give regular forum members whom they don't trust enough to be moderators powers to edit the site (besides groups).

  • 07.30.2006 11:05 PM PDT
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Posted by: Guardian Hunter
I though it was a good idea when it was suggested and I still think its a good idea but I'm realistic and I know its never gonna happen. Bungie is NEVER going to give regular forum members whom they don't trust enough to be moderators powers to edit the site (besides groups).


Which is fantastic, because a real council wouldn't need moderator powers. As much as the majority of the group seemed to want them...

  • 07.30.2006 11:37 PM PDT

I hate everything, but it's not my fault.

I think Guardian misspoke. I'm guessing that he meant: if Achronos & Co. doesn't trust someone enough to make him a mod, then why would they trust him to edit a large section of the site (The 7th Column page and all that stuff)?

elmicker, I appreciate your apology, and I hope that you appreciate the experience of getting accidentally banned. :)

There is the possibility of elitism, but let's be frank: that already exists, and while being on the Council would somewhat legitimize it, people who are dedicated to snobbery will find some way to make themselves feel better, although obviously they prefer something which also makes other people feel worse. There will always be elitist people in any community, and I know how inferior that can make people feel (of course, the trick is simply to remember this is only an internet forum!). However, I think any elitism would be mostly stamped out by the fact that if any of the Council members were caught being blatant elitist jerks it would probably lead to his expulsion. I know that I would be very upset if I saw any of that happening.

But it's 3am, so I'm going to stop now.

  • 07.31.2006 12:02 AM PDT

Posted by: Pink Menace
And he gave it the "pretentious title" that you're so angry at.

It's Sketch's idea.

  • 07.31.2006 12:08 AM PDT
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Thought it was a good idea at the time...But I don't know, not really into it...

Now let's think about it, that was a big thread lot's of people volunteered, this means they'd all have to be messaged, some may be inactive while others just don't want to...This would also be a hastle on Bungie in general, many members would oppose the idea, especially new ones, who are only here for Halo and not Bungie in general.

I think it's a good idea but there are alot of things that are wrong with the idea.

  • 07.31.2006 4:19 AM PDT
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The Council was indeed an idea of Sketch, and Bungie always wanted the 7th Column to be fan controlled. So a "Council" isn't really much of a far fetched idea as it seems. You probably know how involved I have been in this Council and the TCC. I've been there when the idea first came into the light, I was there when it fell away and I'm here now that it's trying to come back. But you know what? Forget it. It was a stupid thing, straight from the start.
I say we throw the whole idea out the window. And while we're at it, lets throw the entire 7th Column out the window! Not like anyone would miss it! Nothing is being done with it and nobody seems to care. It's a piece of junk. i say we kill of the 7th Column because it's current state is ridiculous!

But we don't, do we? We intend to keep it for unknown reasons. And we just let it sit there, somewhere in some dark corner where it can gather dust. So now we have this group of people that is actually trying to do something with it, and they are being called snobbish and elitist.

Fine, then they are elitist. But if it means that they can actually bring the Column back to it's former state, then so be it.
And Elmicker, if you have a problem with the moderators, just say it out loud. If there is one thing I hate, it's what you are doing right now; Gee, I have a problem with the moderators, but I'm not going to say with whom or why. I'd rather have some honesty, even if it means hurting one or two feeling. Better solved now then never.


Posted by: Pure Ruin
Guys? Just let the thread die, we don't need another semi-colon ridden diatribe by a concerned forumgoer. The Council is "being looked into" when it was last mentioned, just leave it at that.

Excuse me? I believe that the Septagon is still for community discussions. And until that changes all of a sudden, I do not see the reasons for this thread to "die".

[Edited on 7/31/2006]

  • 07.31.2006 4:20 AM PDT
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Posted by: just another fan


But we don't, do we? We intend to keep it for unknown reasons. And we just let it sit there, somewhere in some dark corner where it can gather dust. So now we have this group of people that is actually trying to do something with it, and they are being called snobbish and elitist.


Bungie let's it gather dust because once it actually meant something...Holding onto it is sort of like holding onto that last bit of your past before you completely change...

I'll quote something from a book I'm reading...


"But no! You won't let me go, because you're holding onto the last bit of your past that was the Nathaniel you were, while still trying to be the big bad John Mandrake you've become!"-Bartimaeus-Ptolemys Gate.

Get the picture...Probably not but it does have something to do with this.

  • 07.31.2006 4:28 AM PDT
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Posted by: ruiner87
Get the picture...Probably not but it does have something to do with this.

No, I do get it actually. And i do mean the things I said. I'd rather have no 7th Column at all, then the one we have now. It's why I support the Council so much, at least they are trying.

Oh, and Yoda had it all wrong. There is a try. Do or do not is only for those who are afraid of failure.

  • 07.31.2006 4:36 AM PDT
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But we don't, do we? We intend to keep it for unknown reasons. And we just let it sit there, somewhere in some dark corner where it can gather dust. So now we have this group of people that is actually trying to do something with it, and they are being called snobbish and elitist.

Trying? There's a fair bit that the council could do/could have done without Bungie support and without any powers over the site. I believe snowmanAXT posted a list of things a while back. elmicker's got a point - the majority of the would-be councillors, apparently, are in it for power and for themselves. If they're not given power, then they have no intention of doing anything. The people who've done stuff for this community have never needed a council, and thus far the council has not done a thing for the community except exist. Which could well be classed as elitist. "We've got this awesome special group for the best community members and you're not invited!"

Fine, then they are elitist. But if it means that they can actually bring the Column back to it's former state, then so be it.

Again, like the Septagon, talk, talk, talk, but never do.

And Elmicker, if you have a problem with the moderators, just say it out loud. If there is one thing I hate, it's what you are doing right now; Gee, I have a problem with the moderators, but I'm not going to say with whom or why. I'd rather have some honesty, even if it means hurting one or two feeling. Better solved now then never.

He did say what his problem was - the same as his problem with the council. I personally tend to feel the same, but it's a problem widespread throughout the community.

It's all good saying "we'll wait for Bungie", but the council's been waiting for Bungie for a long time. If they actually give a damn about helping the community instead of just sitting there in the knowledge that "when somebody does something, I'll be in a position of authority and respect".

Or maybe the council should stop thinking about what they can do for themselves, but instead of ways the rest of the community can be involved.

I'll admit. I haven't been in the chapter for a long time, I don't know what's been discussed at all currently. What I, like any other member, do know, is that whatever it is, it's not coming out to help the community. I would dearly love to be proved wrong about all of this and see a bunch of dedicated people doing their best to help out. Even if it only starts with posting a few of those council ideas around the Septagon for other people to participate in.

  • 07.31.2006 4:51 AM PDT

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My turn.

I remember when the thread was first made. There were pages and pages of people posting and pages and pages of supporters for the idea. So now i wonder; what changed? Have people really given up on the column after this short amount of time? I was previously under the impression that most people wanted the column to improve but agreed that the time had come when little could really be done by lowly members. So why now do people down-talk this idea?

Now surely, if you no longer care about the 7th Column, fair enough, but then what difference would it make to you if the column council was made? If the council can truly make the column better, fantastic. If not, what difference does it make?

For those who claim this to be elitist, i can see your point but just know that, as far as i'm aware, this is not in the heart of anyone who wants to see this happen. You know, if i knew that Bungie were definitely working at organising this council, i would happily sit back and let them do everything. Surely then the people could not be seen as elitist.

Finally, for those who are confusing the TCC with the Council; the TCC does not consider itself to be the forerunner to the 7th Column council, nor does it ever claim to be. That chapter is for discussing this council such as ideas on what they could do, what areas need help etc. aswell as help gather the community to do community based work. So i do ask that no one is confused about this again because you are utterly incorrect.

  • 07.31.2006 5:08 AM PDT
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Posted by: Psyched
But we don't, do we? We intend to keep it for unknown reasons. And we just let it sit there, somewhere in some dark corner where it can gather dust. So now we have this group of people that is actually trying to do something with it, and they are being called snobbish and elitist.

Trying? There's a fair bit that the council could do/could have done without Bungie support and without any powers over the site.

As Maz already pointed out, there are too few people who are doing something. Yes what you and Elmicker have said is true, a lot of people join just for some so called power. And even more claim that they want to help out, but in reality don't do a thing.


Fine, then they are elitist. But if it means that they can actually bring the Column back to it's former state, then so be it.

Again, like the Septagon, talk, talk, talk, but never do.

See above.


I'll admit. I haven't been in the chapter for a long time, I don't know what's been discussed at all currently. What I, like any other member, do know, is that whatever it is, it's not coming out to help the community. I would dearly love to be proved wrong about all of this and see a bunch of dedicated people doing their best to help out. Even if it only starts with posting a few of those council ideas around the Septagon for other people to participate in.

Trust me, I know all about it. I constantly bash my head against the desk when something goes wrong again, or if things come to a complete stop (very often). And I'd love to prove you wrong, but with so few people things take time, even the smaller things. But hell, today, one of our little ideas will merge into reality, and with a bit of luck, will become a success.

Thing is, it's easy to place all the blame on the TCC, for not doing what it should. But we are not the Council. We are not the ones to be doing the Council tasks. Instead, we are trying to make the Council a reality. But we can't do everything. The rest of the community is just as much to blame for not helping out either.
-edit- I see GP beat me to this part.

[Edited on 7/31/2006]

  • 07.31.2006 5:20 AM PDT
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Posted by: Pure Ruin
Right, sorry. I just thought that seeing as this idea gets resurrected every time there are new mods chosen and certain people's names are not on that list, that perhaps the community was getting tired of it. But who could possibly get tired of a topic with the ever-so thinly veiled premise "Achronos, give me some form of power"?

As far as I can tell, this is only the third time the topic has been brought up. Once by Sketch, once by Goweb and now this thread. And I don't think this topic has ever been created due to the fact that "new mods" have been selected. I don't even see what they have to do with the Council in the first place.

  • 07.31.2006 6:12 AM PDT
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Only the paranoid will survive!

Posted by: elmicker
A little misunderstanding there ;)

I took that a bit too far earlier, consider this an open apology to anyone who may have been offended; that was not my intention.


Thank you, if that was directed at me, and I apologize as well.

Posted by: goweb
Posted by: Pink Menace
And he gave it the "pretentious title" that you're so angry at.

It's Sketch's idea.


And I stand corrected. Thank you =]

[Edited on 7/31/2006]

  • 07.31.2006 6:21 AM PDT

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Well if Bungie does make the Column Official, I would be more content with it if Bungie elected the members.

  • 07.31.2006 6:24 AM PDT
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Only the paranoid will survive!

Posted by: Pure Ruin
Posted by: just another fan
Posted by: Pure Ruin
Guys? Just let the thread die, we don't need another semi-colon ridden diatribe by a concerned forumgoer. The Council is "being looked into" when it was last mentioned, just leave it at that.

Excuse me? I believe that the Septagon is still for community discussions. And until that changes all of a sudden, I do not see the reasons for this thread to "die".


Right, sorry. I just thought that seeing as this idea gets resurrected every time there are new mods chosen and certain people's names are not on that list, that perhaps the community was getting tired of it. But who could possibly get tired of a topic with the ever-so thinly veiled premise "Achronos, give me some form of power"?

I guess we should keep talking up Junior Moderators and why Bungie needs them to, uh, edit entire sections of the site. I on the other hand, think it's a silly idea.

JAF: I respect your need to assert yourself, but perhaps picking on some innocuous comment and feigning indignance is a poor way to go about it. I guess I'll have to get used to it until I'm in whatever cliche decides that everyone with a join date greater than 1 year has tenure.


Perhaps it was a bad time to create the thread. Truth be told, I wrote this up because I have sun poisining covering my back and moving around is a -blam!-. Thus, I stayed at my desk for the day. Naturally, I got bored, so I decided to just jump out there and see what people thought.

[Edited on 7/31/2006]

  • 07.31.2006 6:29 AM PDT
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Borrowing from other people, and incorporating my own philosophy, I don't see how a community-based chapter could hurt. If people do it to gain some sort of recognition, surely they will run themselves into the dust because they don't actually care about the community. For instance, if someone were to pretend to be a helpful member of the community, then be appointed as a moderator, they'd be a terrible moderator, and would probably be stripped of power in a week or so. If people are trying to help the community in some way, then the idea may not take off (as with the previous Councils, from the tales I hear), but at least it has a fighting chance. I've almost never assumed badly of someone else, and in this case, if someone is helping the community, it should be assumed that they are doing so because they want to help, not because they want something in return.

Frankly, if anything is supposed to help the community, I support it (I enjoy reading the Chapter Spotlights). I doubt this is an area I would be able to contribute in, but I support that other people are trying to do it themselves.

  • 07.31.2006 6:36 AM PDT

"I pledge to punch all switches, to never shoot where I could use grenades, to admit the existence of no level except Total Carnage, to never use caps lock as my "run" key, and to never, ever, leave a single BoB alive."

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Posted by: Mabian
Borrowing from other people, and incorporating my own philosophy, I don't see how a community-based chapter could hurt. If people do it to gain some sort of recognition, surely they will run themselves into the dust because they don't actually care about the community. For instance, if someone were to pretend to be a helpful member of the community, then be appointed as a moderator, they'd be a terrible moderator, and would probably be stripped of power in a week or so. If people are trying to help the community in some way, then the idea may not take off (as with the previous Councils, from the tales I hear), but at least it has a fighting chance. I've almost never assumed badly of someone else, and in this case, if someone is helping the community, it should be assumed that they are doing so because they want to help, not because they want something in return.

Frankly, if anything is supposed to help the community, I support it (I enjoy reading the Chapter Spotlights). I doubt this is an area I would be able to contribute in, but I support that other people are trying to do it themselves.


Agreed...you put my thoughts into words. Maybe because I am tired and don't feel like typing much...but you hit it right on. But the thing I say is let Bungie elect the members for the Council. They are impartial, and they know who is trustworthy out of the community. It is like picking moderators I guess...except no one gets beaten with wet noodles or hippo licked.

  • 07.31.2006 6:38 AM PDT

*Sgt

Posted by: AlexZander
The main thing holding The Council Chambers back is the fact that there are too few members and that it takes a lot of time and effort to write Quality Chapter Spotlights and most of the members of the The Council Chambers have just been far to busy. Now that JAF is a mod there is even less people to work on it.

-MAZ


Right.. The Council Chambers are extremely inactive right now.

  • 07.31.2006 7:40 AM PDT
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I don't think Bungie could elect them. With the moderators, Bungie just approves of the choices of the current mods(according to dmb). So, really, the moderators are the only ones who could elect them. But this would be bad. They'd end up promoting only their friends, whether they mean to or not. As moderators, friendship is necessary with fellow mods, in order to be a cohesive and effective team. But, if they promoted their friends to council, that would be stupid because they wouldn't even be working with each other.

There's just no way for them to be chosen.

  • 07.31.2006 7:44 AM PDT
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Posted by: just another fan
Posted by: Psyched
But we don't, do we? We intend to keep it for unknown reasons. And we just let it sit there, somewhere in some dark corner where it can gather dust. So now we have this group of people that is actually trying to do something with it, and they are being called snobbish and elitist.

Trying? There's a fair bit that the council could do/could have done without Bungie support and without any powers over the site.

As Maz already pointed out, there are too few people who are doing something. Yes what you and Elmicker have said is true, a lot of people join just for some so called power. And even more claim that they want to help out, but in reality don't do a thing.

I agree with that, TCC's member count says 92 (Last time I checked) but in reality there are only a solid 15 or 20 members who contribute. From what I've seen though when a good idea gets brought up those 20 members can get it done. The real problem I think is that the TCC (and the Council idea) has slipped out of the Communities sight. More people know about TCC, more ideas arise, more that can get done to help.

Right now the majority of inactive members in the TCC had joined because of that feeling of elitism or in an attempt to grab some power. I think that's sad.

  • 07.31.2006 9:18 AM PDT
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The Frontline - A group dedicated to help improve the forums as a whole.

Can you edit in a poll? If you can, do so as it'd be nice to see which way is preferred.

  • 07.31.2006 9:49 AM PDT

*Sgt

Posted by: Gnome
Posted by: just another fan
Posted by: Psyched
But we don't, do we? We intend to keep it for unknown reasons. And we just let it sit there, somewhere in some dark corner where it can gather dust. So now we have this group of people that is actually trying to do something with it, and they are being called snobbish and elitist.

Trying? There's a fair bit that the council could do/could have done without Bungie support and without any powers over the site.

As Maz already pointed out, there are too few people who are doing something. Yes what you and Elmicker have said is true, a lot of people join just for some so called power. And even more claim that they want to help out, but in reality don't do a thing.

I agree with that, TCC's member count says 92 (Last time I checked) but in reality there are only a solid 15 or 20 members who contribute. From what I've seen though when a good idea gets brought up those 20 members can get it done. The real problem I think is that the TCC (and the Council idea) has slipped out of the Communities sight. More people know about TCC, more ideas arise, more that can get done to help.

Right now the majority of inactive members in the TCC had joined because of that feeling of elitism or in an attempt to grab some power. I think that's sad.


I don't know if you are in TCC or not, but there are a few good ideas/projects floating around. One thing that was just started the other day (JAF mainly did it..) was a 7th column art group. We have community inspired Bungie/Halo/etc. art that has been done (in different types of art) or will be done. We are trying to get some more "artists" in the group.

  • 07.31.2006 10:56 AM PDT

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I have a question about the council.

Would it be open to anyone or would the people be chosen?

I think it should be open to anyone if the 7th column is supposed to be community controlled. if it was closed to everone except a select few it would be Community controlled it would be more of a select individuals doing stuff for the better of everyone which would mean everyone would have to get an equal amount of whatever came out. The Seven7h lead by a small vanguard of people. Lenin had the same idea about Russia. Didn't work.

  • 07.31.2006 11:39 AM PDT
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Posted by: spartakus14
I have a question about the council.

Would it be open to anyone or would the people be chosen?

I think it should be open to anyone if the 7th column is supposed to be community controlled. if it was closed to everone except a select few it would be Community controlled it would be more of a select individuals doing stuff for the better of everyone which would mean everyone would have to get an equal amount of whatever came out. The Seven7h lead by a small vanguard of people. Lenin had the same idea about Russia. Didn't work.

The Council is supposed to be a small group of people that simply help out with the organization of the 7th Column. The councilors are sort of like the volunteers at some event.
Although the 7th Column should always be open to everyone, the Councilors have to make sure things are updated.

  • 07.31.2006 12:03 PM PDT

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