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  • Subject: FORERUNNERS ARE HUMANS!!!
Subject: FORERUNNERS ARE HUMANS!!!
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Posted by: eMCee

Someone (sorry I forgot who) posted the same argument you made
about 343 saying "our" lost time, and it initially changed my mind,
but now that I think about it, that could mean a lot of things. No theory
is fool proof, but if we think of as many explanations as we can
now, maybe we'll play Halo 2 and find out which ones were right.



That would be me. Also, in addition to the 'our', i was pointing out that he mentioned 'human history', which implies that he was forerunner (to me, at least), not human. But, you are right about the 'no theory is fool proof'. As for humans being forerunner, I beleive we are related to the forerunner, but we are not neccesarily directly related. Like, in that same post you linked to, my second post, in response to your response of my post, I mentioned that perhaps humans were forerunner that had fallen out of grace, then the forerunner dissapeared or whatever may have happened to them, then the covenant decided to go on a genocidal (i'm actually not sure that that is the coorect word) rampage and cleanse us from the universe.

  • 10.15.2004 9:28 PM PDT
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ok people who have wondered this mystery here is the answer,i am all knowing because i have read all of the halo books comics etc. The forerunners are humans, that solves that but there is 1 question that remains how did the forerunners build halo the answer is they didnt the Covenant did and they put humans there as a experament but they did this so far back in their history that there was no evidence of it takeing place, but the prohphets had a story of this and was passed down through each new round of them. Now they spread a story of these great forerunners and that they were gods and that the humans were abominations before them and that they were to wipe them out. now back to the humans they were put on halo baceuse the covenant were seeing that if we would be a threat to them,and they tried to fool them into thinking that nothing happened to them thats why halo is like it is now their mistake they didnt think that the humans were curious creatures and they left tech on the world not thinking that they would find it, but we did and soon we mastered it learned how to build it and imporve it hance the pannels that MC understood and GS, but by this time the population was quite big so we took a ship full of people to other planets and settled them this is why all of the planets that we have settled in the future have artifacts. now the covanent found out and pursued after them but they lost track of them and we came to our homeworld earth. this explains all of the reasosns why the Covenant hate us but the covenants name as to why they picked it the prophets said that they made a deal wit the forerunners to kill the humans and a deal with a god of any kind is called a Covenant. ha ha i win ya'll lose.

  • 10.16.2004 5:53 PM PDT
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That really hurt my eyes. And no offense, but there is definately something wrong with that theory. And that is everything.

  • 10.16.2004 5:59 PM PDT
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I've read a lot of the different theories, and now I relaize that if you guys are right, then I am really pissed off cause that means Halo 2 is ruined for me, like Halo was ruined for me, like I'm sure Halo 3 (God willing) will be ruined for me. I think I'm just going to preorder the next one and then hide under a rock for 5 months.

  • 10.16.2004 6:02 PM PDT
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I posted this earlier today in a new thread, but it's relevant to the
discussion and provides an alternate theory for Forerunner and
humans.

The Following post contains spoilers for Clarke's Odyssey series.

I read 2001: A Space Odyssey a few months ago, and recently
began reading 3001, and the old Marathon/Halo juices started
flowing and I decided to write about it.

In the Odyssey series, there is a race that is referred to in 3001
as "The First Born." This race started out as any other race, but
as their technology improved and their machines became better
than their bodies, they started transferring their brains into
mechanical structures, then they eventually gave that up and
became what was essentially spaceships. "The First Born" went
throughout the universe in search of potential Minds to encourge
and protect, because what The First Born valued most was the
Mind. They helped many species, including humans, to reach
their potential as intellegent people. After a while The First
Born became pure energy, but what they left behind was a
kind of trail for other species to follow in their footsteps.

There are some obvious similarities to the Jjaro and Forerunner
in the Bungieverse, but what do these parallels imply? In the
Odyssey series, The First Born left behind these strange
monoliths that are completely black, and refract no light at all.
The first of these was found in 2001, in the Tycho crater.
(Marathon fans get a kick out of that one, and an interesting
side note is the spacesuit the scientists wore on the Moon
was simply called a Mk IV =) The second was found on one
of Saturn's Moons. I can't remember if it was Ganymede,
Europa, or something else entirely, but wherever it was, it
was much bigger than the one on the moon, and much, much
stranger.

The final monolith was found on Earth in Africa in the year
2513. There are some parallels to Halo here, with the date
of the monolith's discovery close to the Halo timeline, and
it's location in Africa. (New Mombasa, Zanzibar) Makes
you wonder what kind of Jjaro/Forerunner artifacts are
present on Earth and it's Moon. Here's something taken from
the Marathon story page.
The Jjaro were a mysterious race that
disappeared from our galaxy millions of
years ago, leaving behind military and
civilian outposts on the moons of many
habitable worlds.
Sounds a lot like 2001 to me.

If we assume Bungie took some influence from the Odyssey books,
then we can make a few conjectures, the first of which is the human
relation to the Jjaro/Forerunner race. I don't think Humans are/were
Jjaro or Forerunner, but they were a kind of experiment, designed
to unlock the potential of the human race, and most likely races
across the Universe. The humans were a great success because
they are innovative, while other races like the ones that make up
the Covenant, (presumably of Forerunner "origin") are not quite the
same.

Now lets have a look at what the Jjaro/Forerunner left behind,
Chiefly Halo. (pardon the pun) The relationship between 343 and
117 creates a lot of confusion, but I think some conjectures based
on Clarke's novels can help.

First of all, what do you think 343 actually sees the Chief as? What
does he see the human race as? If the Jjaro/Forerunner were a
race that had gone beyond flesh, then they could probably reverse
the effect as well. The human's extreme intellect may have
fooled 343 into thinking that Humans were some kind of "machine"
or vessel for the Transport of a Jjaro/Forerunner. After all, if you
were basically a computer, you would need some kind of vessel
when you had to kick some ass, so the Human body, while a
weak instrument, may have been enough to confuse humans with
Forerunner.

I wouldn't be much of a speculator if I didn't give any in-game
support, now would I?

343 GS says this:
Your environment suit should serve you well when the Flood
begins to alter the atmosphere. You are a good planner.
But he said this earlier:
These Sentinels will supplement your combat system. But, I
suggest you upgrade to at least a Class Twelve combat skin.
Your current model only scans as a Class Two, which is ill suited
for this kind of work.
Why the difference between Environment suit, and Combat
skin? Master Chief has his armor, and his body. The only
other thing I can see the "Combat Skin" as is 117's body,
which would make sense if the Forerunner used biological
"machines" to do their dirty work.

  • 10.16.2004 6:22 PM PDT
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Somewhere in this thread i read about humans being the only one's that 343 would accept as reclaimers. Remember in the books when Cortana figured out that the Covenent could not adapt or learn anything new they just had to use the technology they found or disovered from other civilizations they counquered? Couldn't this be why 343 choose humans to be reclaimers instead of the covenant? (sorry for all the mispellings) and alot of really good reasons why we could possible be the Forerunners.

  • 10.16.2004 6:26 PM PDT
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cMcee...i'm buying those books tonight. LoL

  • 10.16.2004 6:30 PM PDT
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Posted by: eMCee

I read 2001: A Space Odyssey a few months ago, and recently
began reading 3001, and the old Marathon/Halo juices started
flowing and I decided to write about it.

In the Odyssey series, there is a race that is referred to in 3001
as "The First Born." This race started out as any other race, but
as their technology improved and their machines became better
than their bodies, they started transferring their brains into
mechanical structures, then they eventually gave that up and
became what was essentially spaceships. "The First Born" went
throughout the universe in search of potential Minds to encourge
and protect, because what The First Born valued most was the
Mind. They helped many species, including humans, to reach
their potential as intellegent people. After a while The First
Born became pure energy, but what they left behind was a
kind of trail for other species to follow in their footsteps.

There are some obvious similarities to the Jjaro and Forerunner
in the Bungieverse, but what do these parallels imply? In the
Odyssey series, The First Born left behind these strange
monoliths that are completely black, and refract no light at all.
The first of these was found in 2001, in the Tycho crater.
(Marathon fans get a kick out of that one, and an interesting
side note is the spacesuit the scientists wore on the Moon
was simply called a Mk IV =) The second was found on one
of Saturn's Moons. I can't remember if it was Ganymede,
Europa, or something else entirely, but wherever it was, it
was much bigger than the one on the moon, and much, much
stranger.


Ganymede and Europa are 2 of the 4 Gaililian (wow, I murdered that spelling) moons of Jupiter, the others bein Io and Callisto. I believe Saturn only has one significant moon, Titan (or Tritan, I' not sure exactly).
On a semi-related yet still sorta off topic note, what you said about "the first born" Transferring their conciousness into their ships sounds like the Core from Total Ahnihilation (great game, in my opinion). In it, the Government (the core) invented a way to transfer consiousness into Machine, and deemed it mandatory for the entire population of the universe, which led a large amount of the population to flee and form a resistance, the Arm. But I digress....

  • 10.16.2004 7:48 PM PDT
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Posted by:bri_guy
On a semi-related yet still sorta off topic note, what you said about "the first born" Transferring their conciousness into their ships sounds like the Core from Total Ahnihilation (great game, in my opinion). In it, the Government (the core) invented a way to transfer consiousness into Machine, and deemed it mandatory for the entire population of the universe, which led a large amount of the population to flee and form a resistance, the Arm. But I digress....

That's an interesting twist on the idea, but I don't see the Forerunner
as beings that would let something like their preference of their
state of matter get in the way. After all, the Forerunner loved life
enough to bring it back after the Flood escaped, right? How
else could the species of the galaxy come back?

I think the Halo has two functions: destuction and ressurection.
If you look on this website carefully, you'll find the definition of
The Library to be: A collection of cloned DNA sequences
whose location and identity can be established by mapping the
genome of a particular organism.


Genome, location, and identity: Everything you need to know
to bring a species back after it's extinction. If The Library
had all of this information, the Index would be where to find
it.

Now, if the Forerunner were machine freaks like The Core from
T.A., then they probably wouldn't care about life too much. The
Forerunner just don't strike me as those kind of guys.





  • 10.16.2004 8:51 PM PDT
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Posted by: eMCee
Posted by:bri_guy
On a semi-related yet still sorta off topic note, what you said about "the first born" Transferring their conciousness into their ships sounds like the Core from Total Ahnihilation (great game, in my opinion). In it, the Government (the core) invented a way to transfer consiousness into Machine, and deemed it mandatory for the entire population of the universe, which led a large amount of the population to flee and form a resistance, the Arm. But I digress....

That's an interesting twist on the idea, but I don't see the Forerunner
as beings that would let something like their preference of their
state of matter get in the way. After all, the Forerunner loved life
enough to bring it back after the Flood escaped, right? How
else could the species of the galaxy come back?

I think the Halo has two functions: destuction and ressurection.
If you look on this website carefully, you'll find the definition of
The Library to be: A collection of cloned DNA sequences
whose location and identity can be established by mapping the
genome of a particular organism.


Genome, location, and identity: Everything you need to know
to bring a species back after it's extinction. If The Library
had all of this information, the Index would be where to find
it.

Now, if the Forerunner were machine freaks like The Core from
T.A., then they probably wouldn't care about life too much. The
Forerunner just don't strike me as those kind of guys.


To tell you the truth, I never really took the time to think about the definition of 'The Library'. To me the question is, whose DNA is stored in the Library? Human? Covenant? Flood? Forerunner? Everythings? And if it isn't Flood specific DNA, why would they (the forerunner)want to provide the template for the Floods food in a place where it would be easy for the flood to get (provided there were also cloning facilities to animate those gene samples)? Unless, of course, there were facilities to get the Gene samples and cloning facilities off of Halo, but that would provide a way for the Flood to escape.

  • 10.17.2004 9:31 AM PDT
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nice theory

  • 10.17.2004 9:35 AM PDT
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Posted by: bri_guy
To tell you the truth, I never really took the time to think about the definition of 'The Library'. To me the question is, whose DNA is stored in the Library? Human? Covenant? Flood? Forerunner? Everythings? And if it isn't Flood specific DNA, why would they (the forerunner)want to provide the template for the Floods food in a place where it would be easy for the flood to get (provided there were also cloning facilities to animate those gene samples)? Unless, of course, there were facilities to get the Gene samples and cloning facilities off of Halo, but that would provide a way for the Flood to escape.

Good point. I don't think the Forerunner would have allowed the DNA
to be in a form that the Flood could get to, and they obviouly couldn't
get to the DNA becuase The Flood were sitting right on Halo with the
DNA 101,217 years at least. (I'm assuming that the DNA on Halo is
from all species in the galaxy) You also have to wonder how sentient
life returned after that time period. Evolution is one way, but 100,000
years seems a little quick for Humanity and the Covenant to advance. (although I'm no biologist)

I think Halo's ressurection phase is a pulse like the destructive one.
While there is no way to know how that would work, The Forerunner
seem to be quite capable of such technology.

I've been considering the possiblity of the Spartans to be clones
from The Library as well.
Think about this:
If humans were on Halo before, (Eagle 117 has provided plenty of
evidence for this) then they could have tapped The Library for
information on the human genome. Stuff like how to modify it,
strengthen it; basically to build the ultimate warrior. This could
explain the Spartans ability to pick up Forerunner technology
with ease. It also seems to coincide with Eagle's Chiron TL34
theory that the Spartan clone training facility is on Halo.
The only problem I see is that if the Spartans were modified
with DNA data found in The Library, then they wouldn't be
100% clones.

Not a solid idea, but I thought it was interesting.

  • 10.17.2004 10:03 AM PDT
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A ressurection phase pulse, I never thought of that. It seems like it would work, and it would take care of the floods ability to escape. And you are right. 100,000 sounds like too short of time to evolve from what-have-you to something sentient.

  • 10.17.2004 10:12 AM PDT
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please post ideas on my comic topic

  • 10.17.2004 10:25 AM PDT
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DMUKYA
Proud member of Eagle 117's theory group, The Watchers
Another great theorist group is Avignon
Interested in the mysteries within all of Bungie's games? Check out Theory of Unification
For the Biblical allegorist in you, there's מִכְמַן
Enjoy reading or writing sci-fi or fantasy? Come to New Horizons

No. These are just really good theories.

  • 10.17.2004 11:06 AM PDT
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My theorie is that Halo "was" created by the humans. For any on who has read the books in Halo: The Flood the chief upon standing in front of the controll panel in the main controll room on Halo notes that the buttons seem strangely familiar to him. When he takes Cortana's data chip out of his head he is able to insert it into the controll panel. Doesent anyone find it odd that human datachips are compatible with alien computers? When the chief is talking with 343 Guilty Spark I noticed something most concerning, Spark says "Why are you using a class 2 battle suit instead of a class 12?" He also mentions the covenant as being "that other species" but never mentions anything about the humans. In the book The Flood the chief finds a dead marine and Guilty Spark calls him the "other reclaimer". Clearly Guilty Spark is only making contact with humans. When they telaport back to the control center they are happily greated by Cortana who has discovered the true purpose of Halo. Guilty Spark acknowleges Cortana as a "construct" and in one of his annoying scentences he refers to cortana as "her". Also while he was talking to the chief as if he previously knew him he states "when you asked me if I would do it, given plenty of time to ponder my answer remains the same." For anyone who has read Halo: First Strike When Cortana merges the covenant flagship with the human ship she begins to reconfigure the plasma turrets. They now fire a straight red beam, much like the sentinels. While fiddleing with the slipstream drive they are teleported many days into the past. Also we never do find out wether or not the sarge is infected or not. After reflecting on all of this I also noticed that Cortana mentions in the control room that Halo is a fortress world. Perhaps the humans master the new methods of slipstream space and create Halo as a secret testing facility sent to the past, the only place where the covenant would not be able to look. Also the flood could have infected the sarge giving the humans the oppertunity to test on the flood. The testing facility Halo's emergency defences incase of an evacuation are the flood. If the flood are too successful in rooting out the enemies then defences can be used againsed the flood. This is all I can think of off the top of my head right now.

  • 10.17.2004 2:14 PM PDT
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Posted by: Vash2k
My theorie is that Halo "was" created by the humans. For any on who has read the books in Halo: The Flood the chief upon standing in front of the controll panel in the main controll room on Halo notes that the buttons seem strangely familiar to him. When he takes Cortana's data chip out of his head he is able to insert it into the controll panel. Doesent anyone find it odd that human datachips are compatible with alien computers? When the chief is talking with 343 Guilty Spark I noticed something most concerning, Spark says "Why are you using a class 2 battle suit instead of a class 12?" He also mentions the covenant as being "that other species" but never mentions anything about the humans. In the book The Flood the chief finds a dead marine and Guilty Spark calls him the "other reclaimer". Clearly Guilty Spark is only making contact with humans. When they telaport back to the control center they are happily greated by Cortana who has discovered the true purpose of Halo. Guilty Spark acknowleges Cortana as a "construct" and in one of his annoying scentences he refers to cortana as "her". Also while he was talking to the chief as if he previously knew him he states "when you asked me if I would do it, given plenty of time to ponder my answer remains the same." For anyone who has read Halo: First Strike When Cortana merges the covenant flagship with the human ship she begins to reconfigure the plasma turrets. They now fire a straight red beam, much like the sentinels. While fiddleing with the slipstream drive they are teleported many days into the past. Also we never do find out wether or not the sarge is infected or not. After reflecting on all of this I also noticed that Cortana mentions in the control room that Halo is a fortress world. Perhaps the humans master the new methods of slipstream space and create Halo as a secret testing facility sent to the past, the only place where the covenant would not be able to look. Also the flood could have infected the sarge giving the humans the oppertunity to test on the flood. The testing facility Halo's emergency defences incase of an evacuation are the flood. If the flood are too successful in rooting out the enemies then defences can be used againsed the flood. This is all I can think of off the top of my head right now.

If Forerunner are human, why would 343 GS say "Stop being so
human" when you shoot him? If 343 assumes you are Forerunner,
and humans are the same as Forerunner, then why would he tell
a Forerunner to stop being what it is?

As for the strange compatiblity with human and Forerunner hardware,
there is always the possiblity of humans using Forerunner tech and
reverse engineering it like the Covenant, but humans are better at it.

  • 10.17.2004 2:36 PM PDT
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you failed to look at the fact that guilty spark knows what a human is even though they had been only there for a few days. also the humans ditched the pillar of autmn when it went down so where would they get the technology to reverse engineer the forrunner hardware. also no ones even seen the controll room so how did the chief know to bring a converter with him? the one fact that even I overlooked is that Guilty Spark can speak english and a few days is an insufficent amount of time to peiece together a language.

  • 10.17.2004 2:59 PM PDT
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ok
<inhales>
forunners are dead this is why:
i finally realised what the monitor meant by "Why do you hesitate to do what you've alredy done." in the book, the flood, the monitor talks to the MC as if they have alredy met. he also refers to the MC as 'reclaimer,' and talks about a previous person the monitor called reclaimer, as if he and the MC are the same person. the previous reclaimer was a fourrunner, and activated halo because the flood could not be contained. this reclaimer knew what would happen if halo was activated, and asked the monitor what to do. "having considerable time to ponder your quary (the 101,217 years the monitor had been left alone on halo), my answer has not changed, there is no choice. we must activate the ring." this means the monitor told the original reclaimer to activate halo, and of course, he complied. since this reclaimer alredy activated halo, the monitor asks why this new reclaimer would refuse to do what "he"(remember the monitor thinks all the people he has called reclaimer are the same person) has done before.
<inhales>
that's roughly it.

  • 10.17.2004 3:06 PM PDT
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alos, on a compleatly unrelated topic, the only reason that the monitor knows about humans, is that he found one, and assumed it was the reclaimer. it's in the flood. im assuming due to the monitor's flamboyency, the human shot the monitor. then the human was killed, suposedly by flood.
also, since MC says he didn't know the dead human, it's kinda safe to asume that the human was not with the pillar of autom, but landed on halo years before

  • 10.17.2004 3:13 PM PDT
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Of course forerunners are humans read the books guilty spark even says in the library that you should upgrade to a class 12 suit or some such nonsense

  • 10.17.2004 3:20 PM PDT
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Posted by: Vash2k
you failed to look at the fact that guilty spark knows what a human is even though they had been only there for a few days. also the humans ditched the pillar of autmn when it went down so where would they get the technology to reverse engineer the forrunner hardware. also no ones even seen the controll room so how did the chief know to bring a converter with him? the one fact that even I overlooked is that Guilty Spark can speak english and a few days is an insufficent amount of time to peiece together a language.

Of course 343 knows what a human is, and if he knows what a human
is, why would he tell a human (Spartan 117) to stop being human?
Why would he pick humans as reclaimers when he obviously sees
them as inferior? It must be a case of mistaken identity. If you know
what Marathon is, this will interest you.
In Marathon, there was a terminal that had a quote from Shakespeare
in it. It read:
I am an ass indeed: you may prove it by my
long ears. I have served him from the hour
of my nativity to this instant, and have
nothing at this hands for my service but
blows: when I am cold he heats me with
beating, when I am warm he cools me with
beating. I am waked with it when I sleep;
raised with it when I sit; driven out of
doors with it when I go from home; welcomed
home with it when I return: nay, I bear it
on my shoulders as a beggar wont her brat;
and I think, when he hath lamed me, I shall
beg it from door to door.

Marathon and Halo have many similar themes, and this particular
quote is from a play called The Comedy of Errors. It was dealt with
mistaken identities.

I also wrote about how 343 could mistake humans for Forerunner
in an earlier post.

Humans would get the Forerunner technoloy from other sites, maybe
even the Halo itself. (Eagle 117 has made many convincing posts that
all but prove that humans were on Halo before the actual events of the
game)

Also, 343 GS says one very important word in the Maw if you listen
carefully.
Inconsistent.

  • 10.17.2004 3:54 PM PDT
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Posted by: eMCee
Posted by: Vash2k
you failed to look at the fact that guilty spark knows what a human is even though they had been only there for a few days. also the humans ditched the pillar of autmn when it went down so where would they get the technology to reverse engineer the forrunner hardware. also no ones even seen the controll room so how did the chief know to bring a converter with him? the one fact that even I overlooked is that Guilty Spark can speak english and a few days is an insufficent amount of time to peiece together a language.

Of course 343 knows what a human is, and if he knows what a human
is, why would he tell a human (Spartan 117) to stop being human?
Why would he pick humans as reclaimers when he obviously sees
them as inferior? It must be a case of mistaken identity. If you know
what Marathon is, this will interest you.
In Marathon, there was a terminal that had a quote from Shakespeare
in it. It read:
I am an ass indeed: you may prove it by my
long ears. I have served him from the hour
of my nativity to this instant, and have
nothing at this hands for my service but
blows: when I am cold he heats me with
beating, when I am warm he cools me with
beating. I am waked with it when I sleep;
raised with it when I sit; driven out of
doors with it when I go from home; welcomed
home with it when I return: nay, I bear it
on my shoulders as a beggar wont her brat;
and I think, when he hath lamed me, I shall
beg it from door to door.

Marathon and Halo have many similar themes, and this particular
quote is from a play called The Comedy of Errors. It was dealt with
mistaken identities.

I also wrote about how 343 could mistake humans for Forerunner
in an earlier post.

Humans would get the Forerunner technoloy from other sites, maybe
even the Halo itself. (Eagle 117 has made many convincing posts that
all but prove that humans were on Halo before the actual events of the
game)

Also, 343 GS says one very important word in the Maw if you listen
carefully.
Inconsistent.


Vash2k, you are not entirely correct. You said that when Cortana Messed with the slipstream drive on the flagship, they were Teleported back a few days. That was the effect of the crystal Halsey recovered, which bent the timelines at Reach and the Threshold system so they meeted at the opprotune time. That is why, at the beginning of chapters, it said DATE: //ERROR or something to that effect.

eMCee, were did 343 say inconsistant? Because, without any context, the word is rather meaningless....

Fun fun... I am rather enjoying myself here.

  • 10.17.2004 4:22 PM PDT
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  • Exalted Mythic Member

DMUKYA
Proud member of Eagle 117's theory group, The Watchers
Another great theorist group is Avignon
Interested in the mysteries within all of Bungie's games? Check out Theory of Unification
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Inconsistant is one of the various little lines he says while floating around during gameplay. I guess I didn't really make much of it until now.

  • 10.17.2004 4:26 PM PDT