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Subject: Riding the Pickle
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  • Exalted Mythic Member
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Posted by: ICEMAN ASSASS1N
Hows about, say "Threads of Interest" that we can have floating around the Septagon? These threads will be used for all the moderator-related issues. We can have links for these threads in a sticky or something, should anyone want to access them.

Then the moderators won't have to put up with all the "attention."


Same problem as with anything that has to do with stickies: The members that need to read the threads so they don't make repeat threads won't read them anyways. But, I suppose it does fix a few of the problems. I'm all for it then.

  • 08.29.2006 8:11 PM PDT
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Location: Outlaws' Summit.

That's the Mabian. No matter what, we'll always have someone who won't follow said rules of the site (or for that matter, a thread that says "READ ME FIRST.")

There are two options that we can take:

1.) Sit back and continue to wonder what this site would be in a "Perfect World." No spam, no flamers, everyone follows the rules, and the moderators are there to maintain the forum and nothing more.

2.) Take action. Even if nothing is working out at the present, if we keep trying, we can get something done. Even if it fails, we tried. And we can learn from these mistakes and continue to move forward.

Right now we're stuck at #1. This site has some issues (issues that weren't around when I joined in April) and I haven't been here long enough to tell if this is merely a cycle that works itself out.

But I can't stand just sitting here and watching nothing be done. Something, anything has to be done about the problems on this site.

Not only the Septagon, but others as well.

*edit*Though as of late, I know that they're trying. The removal of Join Dates and the addition of the Search Feature are both proof that problems are capable of being resolved on this site. But there are still so much more....

[Edited on 8/29/2006]

  • 08.29.2006 8:20 PM PDT

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Tack action. Even if nothing is working out at the present, if we keep trying, we can get something done. Even if it fails, we tried. And we can learn from these mistakes and continue to move forward.

Trying is only the first step towards failure.

anyways, it's human nature to create conflict. There will never be a "perfect world".

there will alsways be that one person who wants to wreck it for the rest of the world. and that person soon gets followers and tries to take over the world and make it a dictatorship.

but they fail too because they tried.

  • 08.29.2006 8:39 PM PDT

SB-117

Posted by: Mabian
That's why.

You didn't answer my question on why... Did you even read my post? I recommend that a rule in the sticky's would be added along the lines of:

"If you have a question to ask a specific member (including moderators), PM them"

This includes both "How do I become a mod?" "How many PMs do you get a day?" etc. They are questions that only a moderator can answer.

People will not have their thread locked for "just having a question", they would have it locked for "not obeying the rules". There is absolutely no difference in these kinds of questions.

Posted by: Mabian
It would give moderators reason to just lock or delete threads without need for a long explanation. It wouldn't help the members asking questions, and it has the potential to cause additional problems. (See previous post.)


What??? Moderators would now just lock these threads leaving the message: "If you have a question that only a certain member can answer (i.e. a moderator), contact them through PMs". It's common sense.

It would be EXACTLY like locking a thread that says "Hey Joe, how was hockey practice last night?". It's addressed to a member and therefore it gets locked.

[Edited on 8/29/2006]

  • 08.29.2006 8:47 PM PDT

Eh, nevermind.

[Edited on 8/29/2006]

  • 08.29.2006 8:48 PM PDT
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Location: Outlaws' Summit.

The problem with PM's (even though I still encourage you PM the Moderators) is that they don't have the time (or interest?) in respect to reading and answering them.

I notice that unless it's a problem that needs addressing, you don't get PM'ed back. Fair enough. You're busy people with lives.But this tends to leave people....unfulfilled? I don't know if that's the right word, but this results in the mindset being "If I make a thread about this question, they'll have to answer. Then we have our problems. The repeat threads. But a public "Thread of Interest" about the moderators would give them a reason to lock all other moderator-related threads.

And those who have questions for them can use this thread to communicate with them. It doesn't have to be (and shouldn't have to be) stickied. Just a couple threads along the lines of:

Moderator Q&A Thread and maybe Moderator problems Thread would reduce all the clutter on the Ninjas to just two threads that everyone can post/take part in.

[Edited on 8/29/2006]

  • 08.29.2006 8:59 PM PDT

SB-117

Posted by: ICEMAN ASSASS1N
The problem with PM's (even though I still encourage you PM the Moderators) is that they don't have the time (or interest?) in respect to reading and answering them.

I notice that unless it's a problem that needs addressing, you don't get PM'ed back. Fair enough. You're busy people with lives.But this tends to leave people....unfulfilled? I don't know if that's the right word, but this results in the mindset being "If I make a thread about this question, they'll have to answer. Then we have our problems. The repeat threads. But a public "Thread of Interest" about the moderators would give them a reason to lock all other moderator-related threads.

And those who have questions for them can use this thread to communicate with them. It doesn't have to be (and shouldn't have to be) stickied. Just a couple threads along the lines of:

Moderator Q&A Thread and maybe Moderator problems Thread would reduce all the clutter on the Ninjas to just two threads that everyone can post/take part in.

Yeah, that doesn't sound half bad. Maybe a new sticky with a FAQ on the first post to enlighten new members (answering that very annoying question too). Then have it open for any members to ask additional questions; great questions could be added to the FAQ. (Exactly how you described except that they are a combined thread. The Q+A would be the first post and any problems and questions could be asked in the same thread because it is left open)

I'll ask Pez to think about making something like that when he gets on (if he's even allowed heh).

[Edited on 8/29/2006]

  • 08.29.2006 9:05 PM PDT
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

So it doesn't matter that the member gets the question answered. It just matters that we don't have to deal with the thread. How does it help members to not answer their question? That's the reason why I backed Iceman's idea. It appeals to both sides. Mods can just lock the thread and hand out a link, while the member doesn't have to go around asking questions multiple times to several different people. There's a single thread that has all the commonly asked questions (or even just a copy of the important parts of the Moderator FAQ), it's put somewhere in the forum (Threads of Interest, it's own sticky, whatever). Then members who want to know how they can become a moderator (or who would have such a question that would be on the FAQ) would ask, be provided a link, and be sent on their way. Meanwhile, the thread gets locked or deleted, and no one has to deal with it.

  • 08.29.2006 9:06 PM PDT
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Location: Outlaws' Summit.

Hats off to Ash and Mabian.

I think an open FAQ is just what the doctor ordered. This will limit the amount of moderator threads (exponentially, in theory), and give a reason to Lock the repeat ones.

Good call on making it a FAQ, you guys. That's a really do-able idea.

Just one question: Should it be Stickied? People tend to not read the Stickies for some reason or another.

[Edited on 8/29/2006]

  • 08.29.2006 9:12 PM PDT

SB-117

Posted by: Mabian
So it doesn't matter that the member gets the question answered. It just matters that we don't have to deal with the thread. How does it help members to not answer their question? That's the reason why I backed Iceman's idea. It appeals to both sides. Mods can just lock the thread and hand out a link, while the member doesn't have to go around asking questions multiple times to several different people. There's a single thread that has all the commonly asked questions (or even just a copy of the important parts of the Moderator FAQ), it's put somewhere in the forum (Threads of Interest, it's own sticky, whatever). Then members who want to know how they can become a moderator (or who would have such a question that would be on the FAQ) would ask, be provided a link, and be sent on their way. Meanwhile, the thread gets locked or deleted, and no one has to deal with it.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be answered. PMing isn't the only way to contact a member (I only wrote PM because it was quicker for me), you can get on MSN, and isn't there a group where you can ask the mods questions? (or is that not there anymore?). PM is just one means of contact.

I am also in agreement of an FAQ, but you said those "How do I become..." threads should be left open until they get an answer while other threads should be locked. You were saying that those threads should be treated seperately... I don't agree with that. They are exactly the same, and should both be locked in order to stop the members spamming it with jokes that just confuse the OP.

I'm not arguing against an FAQ sticky, I think it's a good idea, I'm arguing against the idea that both topics should be treated differently. Mainly because I dislike the "How do I become a mod?" threads even more than the random questions, due to all the tired "jokes" people say in them.

  • 08.29.2006 9:19 PM PDT
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Posted by: ash55
I'm not saying they shouldn't be answered. PMing isn't the only way to contact a member (I only wrote PM because it was quicker for me), you can get on MSN, and isn't there a group where you can ask the mods questions? (or is that not there anymore?). PM is just one means of contact.


My only qualm is with that part. There are certainly faster ways to get a question answered. But that qualm now seems to have been settled with Iceman's idea.

I am also in agreement of an FAQ, but you said those "How do I become..." threads should be left open until they get an answer while other threads should be locked. You were saying that those threads should be treated seperately... I don't agree with that. They are exactly the same, and should both be locked in order to stop the members spamming it with jokes that just confuse the OP.

I'm not arguing against an FAQ sticky, I think it's a good idea, I'm arguing against the idea that both topics should be treated differently. Mainly because I dislike the "How do I become a mod?" threads even more than the random questions, due to all the tired "jokes" people say in them.


Aha! Now we are finding a bit more common ground. Indeed, I dislike the overuse of the jokes in those threads. As I said before, once in a while it is okay. 8 or 9 times in a single thread is way too many.

The only reason I set the "how do I become a mod" questions apart was because I saw those as reasonable questions that deserved answers. I singled those out because of all of the questions concerning moderators, that was the only question that seemed like an actual question members asked because they were genuinely curious, and not because they wanted to see how many moderators would post in their thread. As long as the question was answered quickly, I was fine. Hence why I believed (past tense) that the thread should be left open until the question was answered, at which point the thread could be left to die.

Posted by: ICEMAN ASSASS1N
Just one question: Should it be Stickied? People tend to not read the Stickies for some reason or another.


I'm not sure that in that sense it would completely matter. Perhaps it could be stickied for a while, then left to drop, with a link added in the "Threads of Interest" sticky. Or perhaps it could be simply made, locked, then sent down to fall while it gets the link, leaving space for more threads. In both cases there are pros and cons, and I think one is just as good as the other. We'll leave that as a toss-up. I think it's more important that the thread exists and that a link can be provided to it than how the thread is presented.

[Edited on 8/29/2006]

  • 08.29.2006 9:29 PM PDT

SB-117

I see your point on how the OPs question would not be just to get attention. But I still see the two threads as basically asking the same question. Both intentions are different, but they would end up breaking the same rule.

It's just good that an FAQ is a good solution to both thread problems and solves both also (the problem of answering "genuine curiosity" as well as cutting down the "I hope I get a mod to post" threads).

Cool, there's nothing to discuss then, we agree, and an FAQ thread would make make both of our worries go away.

Now it's just a case of getting a moderator to enforce a rule like this (and to make an FAQ thread). I assume they will love to stop these instances of people cracking jokes and sucking up but we need confirmation of course. As I said, I'm waiting for Pezza to come online to ask him whether he thinks this is a good idea but you can ask someone else or see if someone posts here who thinks it's a good idea.

------

*edit* Oh yeah, Ice, that's probably up to the moderator who makes the thread :P

But I (if I add my two pennies) would add something to the rules along the lines of:

"If you have a question for a specific user, contact them though PMs. If you have a question for a Moderation either use the PM system, or <link>this thread</link> (if its a general moderator question, I recommend the latter).

That way the link stays in the rules sticky and I imagine the thread will remain on the first page for a while.

[Edited on 8/29/2006]

  • 08.29.2006 10:12 PM PDT

Ach! Was ist los?

While the FAQ thing is probably good, I honestly doubt many of the offenders will be swayed by it should it be implemented.

As for the joking, well... to be honest, I think it's better if that happens in ninja topics specifically as long as it reduces the amount of noise in other topics... Kind of a lighting rod for silliness, see?

  • 08.29.2006 10:19 PM PDT
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The Frozen Minority - The most infamous clan borne from the Seventh Column.

I know it sounds a little underwhelming and almost irrelavent in this great discussion but I think alot of it comes down to our title. I know it is there to show we are not regular members, as with the white text and avatar but I think when the title "Forum Ninja" is taken beyond that context it becomes an elitist RPG.

The whole Ninjas striking from shadows, here comes the ban-katana, the whole online entity that seems to be created around us, like we are ascended mortals is, well, pissing me off.

I got a PM saying "Nice job, dont ninjafy me with your sword!". Or something similar. Weeks before, when my text was blue, the same guy had dismissed my opinion because I was only a level 30 in snipers.

I lock topics. I remove bad posters. I am a regular member who has been trusted with cleaning up minor problems on the forum.

If you treat me as a real ninja or a higher being - I will have no respect for you. The people I respect the most are people like Jay, Jeff, Shai and Ash; the guys who tell me to drop dead or I'm a big failure. I have no time for people who want to make friends with my ban-katana.

I would rather be called Pezza instead of Moderator or Ninja.

  • 08.29.2006 11:46 PM PDT
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Posted by: BobBQ
I agree, I think.


Oh man...Sorry Bob, but someone has to sig that, anyway Banshee I totally agree with you, flattery works on everyone, yes, people are feeding the trolls, but most people can't be bothered to say "ZomG, T15 i5 4 m0D B41t1nG Thr34D!!111eleven" people find the topics interesting, I know I do...Although, yes, this forum was created for threads about improving the site, not for aking about how a ninja's life is structered.

So yes Banshee, I agree with you...But one last question...

What the bloody hell does this have to do with riding the pickle?

  • 08.30.2006 12:02 AM PDT
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Posted by: Johnrap
I blame a lack of emoticons. But, maybe I'm just not funny.

Nope, you're pretty much the most annoying/mod kissing member right now, but there's hope for you yet.

Posted by: Pezza
If you treat me as a real ninja or a higher being - I will have no respect for you. The people I respect the most are people like Jay, Jeff, Shai and Ash; the Jumpers who tell me to drop dead or I'm a big failure.

Yea, Jeff and Jay really are relentless on xbl. My advice if you've never played with them on xbl, DON'T! As for Face Dancer XI, well, you get to make fun of him, lol. And honestly Shai, why do you have a snake as an avatar?

  • 08.30.2006 4:31 AM PDT
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Read about the Forgotten Spartan I Program
Butane: To protect the world from devastation!
sir_brilliant: To unite all people within our nation!
Rainman89: To denounce the evils of truth and love!
sir_brilliant: To extend out reach to the stars above!
SpaceGhostFlyer: Jessie!
Butane: James!
sir_brilliant: Team Rocket blasting off at the speed of light
Butane: Surrender now or prepare to fight
sir_brilliant: Meowth, that's right!

The problem is, Pezza, that so many of the members enjoy the Ninja aspect. Not to suck up, it just separates B.net from the other sites. It is just a little side plot in the whole B.net thing, and I understand that it is probably very frustrating at times, but think about how much more bland the site would be if you were just "moderators" or worse, just Pezza. This site is great because it actually is a community. If I see the same poster twice on another forum, like IMDB, I might remember him. If I see a member on B.net twice, I am pretty sure I am going to notice him/her, and remember them next time they cross my path. Sadly, some people do think that White text and a custom avatar=greatness. All it really means, as JAF said, is that you clean up. Really if anything, mods are our janitors, janitors who have a right to kick us out if we act up. Of course, that doesn't stop you from being an Internet Janitor.

No amount of hippo-licking, custom avatar's or different colored text makes you better, but hey, I enjoy Bob's stories about shooting hippos, and beating up chuck Norris. And every once and a while, it is funny to hear "In soviet Russia, mom jokes you!" Yes, new members and suck-ups make it worse, but they aren't the people you should be worried about. And if they want their delusions, why can't they have them?

Oh, and spartacus, complacency is the second ;)

  • 08.30.2006 4:47 AM PDT
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Regarding that FAQ, I think a shiny title can help out. Something along the lines of "THIS IS HOW YOU BECOME A MODERATOR!!!".
When a sticky has a title like that, people will flock towards it like chickens flocking towards the last piece of corn.

The only problem I see with locking all the "how do I become a moderator?" threads, is that I will get even more Pm's from people asking me that question, but I suppose that's only a minor problem.

  • 08.30.2006 4:51 AM PDT
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The Frontline - A group dedicated to help improve the forums as a whole.

Posted by: Pezza
I know it sounds a little underwhelming and almost irrelavent in this great discussion but I think alot of it comes down to our title. I know it is there to show we are not regular members, as with the white text and avatar but I think when the title "Forum Ninja" is taken beyond that context it becomes an elitist RPG.

The whole Ninjas striking from shadows, here comes the ban-katana, the whole online entity that seems to be created around us, like we are ascended mortals is, well, pissing me off.

I got a PM saying "Nice job, dont ninjafy me with your sword!". Or something similar. Weeks before, when my text was blue, the same guy had dismissed my opinion because I was only a level 30 in snipers.

I lock topics. I remove bad posters. I am a regular member who has been trusted with cleaning up minor problems on the forum.

If you treat me as a real ninja or a higher being - I will have no respect for you. The people I respect the most are people like Jay, Jeff, Shai and Ash; the guys who tell me to drop dead or I'm a big failure. I have no time for people who want to make friends with my ban-katana.

I would rather be called Pezza instead of Moderator or Ninja.

Very valid point. I wonder if it's that people look up to Moderators as "higher-beings" with awe that creates the interest. People try and have a Moderator as their friend almost just for the boasting power. It's sad, but there isn't anything that can really be done about it.

  • 08.30.2006 5:18 AM PDT

*Sgt

The whole ninja "rpg thing" had its fun and was a light hearted subject for a long while, but now people are getting so into it, and taking it so seriously, that (god help these souls) but I think they actually believe you are ninjas and will actually kill them.

  • 08.30.2006 5:42 AM PDT
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The Frontline - A group dedicated to help improve the forums as a whole.

Posted by: SgtSTFU
The whole ninja "rpg thing" had its fun and was a light hearted subject for a long while, but now people are getting so into it, and taking it so seriously, that (god help these souls) but I think they actually believe you are ninjas and will actually kill them.

I wouldn't put it past them... >.>

  • 08.30.2006 5:43 AM PDT
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I like to Rollick

It's all in good fun, and it's tradition. Bungie isn't your ordinary game company and I think that the Ninja aspect fits really well.

  • 08.30.2006 5:43 AM PDT
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Posted by: ash55
I am personally sick of the "lolz, mod club askz 2 b in u!" crap on this forum. I personally love just pissing about though (I guess I am sort of a troll and I'll try to stop that).

It was funny about a year ago, when I made it up. Now it's just annoying. :/

As I've said before, I don't like ass-kissers. I don't like followers. I don't enjoy people talking to me because I'm a mod, for that sole reason. I like being part of the community, though, which is harder now-a-days. I like talking to some people on MSN, but others just annoy me (because they usually follow up with 'hey ur a mod join my group its great' or 'wow ur a mod' or some -blam!- like that). If I can be treated like a friend on MSN, all the better. I don't like being treated like a superhero.

Hell, I respect other members. I don't unload praise, but people like BobBQ and Sardonic, I do respect (Ghandi I don't, because he never gets up on time and he's lazy).

Since us six became mods, I've tried to simply act the same. I reply to threads in the Halo 3 forum, putting forth my 2-cents and stuff. Trying to participate as per normally. But that gets hard when people focus on your opinion just because you're a moderator.

Maybe that's why I like talking at Halo2sucks.com? They don't recognise me as a moderator most of the time. They recognise me as a member, which is quite nice. To be frank, I almost always don't agree with them; but at least I have that option. Here people just go "okay don't ban me" and leave it at that.

People trying to be in the 'in crowd' annoy me. Saying a joke doesn't make you cool. Being cool makes you cool. Being an actual member with his or her own opinion makes you cool. Repeating jokes does not.

-TGP-

[Edited on 8/30/2006]

  • 08.30.2006 6:05 AM PDT

Sorry to say it TGP, but it wasn't even funny then...

LAWLZ, BURNZ!


I went on a moderator topic locking spree a while ago, but that spree didn't last long since it was a losing battle. From now on, threads about moderators are not allowed (unless it's about how we can improve and such). Sound good?

  • 08.30.2006 6:13 AM PDT

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