Halo 1 & 2 for PC
This topic has moved here: Poll [22 votes]: Do you think H2V's netcode should eliminate shot leading?
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Subject: Fix the Netcode?
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Poll: Do you think H2V's netcode should eliminate shot leading?  [closed]
Yes:  50%
(11 Votes)
No:  50%
(11 Votes)
Total Votes: 22

Do you think that Bungie ought to fix the netcode for Halo 2 Vista so that you don't have to lead your shots anymore? It would probably be easy to fix, as it was a screw-up in the first place, but it would ruin the feel of the game for PC players, and a lot of people would have to learn to how to shoot again. On the other hand, eliminating lead would make it possible for a lot more newbs (not n00bs, mind) to snipe you. I imagine it would be pretty frusturating to go from super-pro in Halo 1 to having your ass sniped off by somebody named New 001 in Halo 2. As such, I think that Bungie ought to just leave the lead factor the way it is.

  • 09.01.2006 8:45 AM PDT

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The bullet should travel like it does in real life. If your pointing at the target and fire it should hit the target.

  • 09.01.2006 8:56 AM PDT
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^ the truth

But what do you mean by "Fix," its not being made with Halo 1 PC's netcode, nor do we know if we have to lead shots already.

  • 09.01.2006 9:20 AM PDT
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I play better when everyone has no lag and therefore less need to lead shots than when everyone needs to lead shots.

I'm all for making it harder for people to hit me, but having to do something that's not needed to artificially boost the difficulty (e.g if everyone had to hit RERRER every 20 bullets because of jams) is just being stupid. So, if they can, they should remove the lead factor (except of course for the plasma weapons and rocket launcher)
You'd need to learn how to shoot in H2 all over again anyway, as the sequel is different enough to the original to rejig your playing style.

  • 09.01.2006 9:24 AM PDT
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Maw

I can't believe that anyone would want to have no lead. Maybe you don't know how a gun works.

You pull the trigger which releases the firing pin which strikes the primer on the bullet. The primer explodes igniting the powder which creates gasses the push the projectile out at high speeds. The bullets is pushed through the barrel and out the muzzle where it continues a course until the air friction and gravity slow it until it drops to the ground or hits the target.

Anything moving from one place to another instantly violates the laws of physics. (That means I think there should be lead in H2V.)

Edit: You make it sound like the netcode is what makes you have to lead. All of the projectiles in Halo have their own speeds, nothing is instant.

[Edited on 9/1/2006]

  • 09.01.2006 1:12 PM PDT
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I think there should be some lead. Its what makes it skillfull. If there was no lead people would be popping of tsks and stuff all the time.

  • 09.01.2006 1:16 PM PDT
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Posted by: trekkie
I can't believe that anyone would want to have no lead. Maybe you don't know how a gun works.

You pull the trigger which releases the firing pin which strikes the primer on the bullet. The primer explodes igniting the powder which creates gasses the push the projectile out at high speeds. The bullets is pushed through the barrel and out the muzzle where it continues a course until the air friction and gravity slow it until it drops to the ground or hits the target.

Anything moving from one place to another instantly violates the laws of physics. (That means I think there should be lead in H2V.)

Edit: You make it sound like the netcode is what makes you have to lead. All of the projectiles in Halo have their own speeds, nothing is instant.


QFT.

Trekkie is right, I mean look at FPS shooters that doesn't have screwy netcode as bad as Halo's. For example, when I play Counterstrike, and I'm a few km away from my enemy, and he's strafing/side-stepping, I aim at him, and fire. But I realize none of the bullets are hitting! I realized that you have to at least aim like 0.2 mm on front of your target while he's sidestepping/strafing, to accurately hit him with your bullets. There's still that SMALL momentary pause of every shot you squeeze out, so even in real life, you'd have to lead to hit a moving target (especially when he's moving fast).
Same goes for Halo, ok, the netcode makes the leading ridiculously larger, but all-in-all, leading is how things work in FPS shooters and real life.

And besides, leading seperates the veterans from the noobs. Just like a few people have already explained, if there was no lead involved whatsoever, newcomers will be able to headshot you from a mile away.

[Edited on 9/1/2006]

  • 09.01.2006 1:20 PM PDT

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Posted by: Recon Number 54
Especially if it scales with range. (which it should)

But then there is the other aspect of projectiles, their parabolic trajectory. No projectile weapon within a gravity well has a flat trajectory. The bullet will drop (and slow) as it travels downrange.

Wouldn't having to manually compensate for elevation as well as windage make long range weapons even more "skill oriented" especially when applied to really long range situations?

I am not being sarcastic or underhanded here, just simply asking the question.


I think the key is that it needs to follow realistic laws of physics. In HaloPC you need to lead your shot 1-2 feet in front of your target if he is on the other side of Blood Gulch(which I estimate is between 200-300yards long). In real life if you have to lead a 200 yard shot on a walking target 2 feet, you need to get a new rifle.

  • 09.01.2006 1:34 PM PDT
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Maw

Posted by: Recon Number 54
Posted by: trekkie
I can't believe that anyone would want to have no lead. Maybe you don't know how a gun works.

You pull the trigger which releases the firing pin which strikes the primer on the bullet. The primer explodes igniting the powder which creates gasses the push the projectile out at high speeds. The bullets is pushed through the barrel and out the muzzle where it continues a course until the air friction and gravity slow it until it drops to the ground or hits the target.

Anything moving from one place to another instantly violates the laws of physics. (That means I think there should be lead in H2V.)

Edit: You make it sound like the netcode is what makes you have to lead. All of the projectiles in Halo have their own speeds, nothing is instant.

I understand your point and I am not intending to belittle it. Just ask a question.

Since having a "projectile" with a "zero time to target" would eliminate the rationale behind leading targets (and no projectile is that fast), I can understand the need and thought behind needing to lead. Especially if it scales with range. (which it should)

But then there is the other aspect of projectiles, their parabolic trajectory. No projectile weapon within a gravity well has a flat trajectory. The bullet will drop (and slow) as it travels downrange.

Wouldn't having to manually compensate for elevation as well as windage make long range weapons even more "skill oriented" especially when applied to really long range situations?

I am not being sarcastic or underhanded here, just simply asking the question.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Yes, I think that would make it slightly more skill oriented, but a famous quote states, "Windage and elevation."-there are only two dimensions involved, which means two variables. Two variables would decrease the odds of hitting the target. If I am correct, the two variables can either be "hit" or "miss". The chances of "hitting" both variables would be 25%, correct? Adding drop and lead would farther decrease the chances of hitting the target. Having the projectile drop and the target move would add two more variables which would make the chances %13. Including the drop and speed of the bullet would decrease the chances of hitting the target by about 12%, so my guess would be that having to manually compensate for both lead and drop would make long range shots more skill oriented.

Tell me where I am wrong.

[Edited on 9/1/2006]

  • 09.01.2006 2:00 PM PDT
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You forgot heartbeat in that list. Trained snipers actually wait for the time between beats to make thier shot since even something as unlikely as your heartbeat can throw off your aim.

As for videogames. No video game will ever have the same realism associated with actual firearms. Some games can model things such as windage, gravity, and distance, but it's hard to model something like breathing and heartbeat.

They have to find a balance between realism and ease of play.

  • 09.01.2006 2:18 PM PDT
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Maw

You forgot heartbeat in that list. Trained snipers actually wait for the time between beats to make thier shot since even something as unlikely as your heartbeat can throw off your aim.
Master Chief is heartless? (joke)

Are realistic calculations of downrange times to target (and the fact that would make leading a variable based on range to target as well as the speed of the target) enough? Or do people want more realism included, like bullet drop? Or any of the other things that make sharpshooting the challenge that it is? In Halo 1 there is, in fact, bullet drop. I don't know about Halo 2, but there is in Halo 1.

[Edited on 9/1/2006]

  • 09.01.2006 2:26 PM PDT
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Game developers have to find a balance between ease of play and realism, so that a casual gamer won't find it too hard, and a hardcore gamer won't find it laughably easy.

This is especially true with simulation games, some like a fast paced arcade style gameplay while others want to be able to push every button that could pssibly be found on whatever is being simulated.

A good example is Microsoft Flight Simulator and Combat Flight Simulator. You can push or twist any number of dials and doodads in that game and it will do something. Those are games for the ultra hard core 'simmer' While a game like Heroes of the Pacific is arcade style with some pretty goofy physics.

If people are looking for a realistic FPS, they should try Operation Flashpoint, or the upcoming OFP2. Halo is more of an arcade style FPS.

  • 09.01.2006 2:35 PM PDT
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Posted by: trekkie
I can't believe that anyone would want to have no lead. Maybe you don't know how a gun works.

You pull the trigger which releases the firing pin which strikes the primer on the bullet. The primer explodes igniting the powder which creates gasses the push the projectile out at high speeds. The bullets is pushed through the barrel and out the muzzle where it continues a course until the air friction and gravity slow it until it drops to the ground or hits the target.

Anything moving from one place to another instantly violates the laws of physics. (That means I think there should be lead in H2V.)

Edit: You make it sound like the netcode is what makes you have to lead. All of the projectiles in Halo have their own speeds, nothing is instant.


that is prety smart, but it isnt exaclty true. lets take the example of a sniper on blood gulch. say you shoot at someone half way across the map (about 500 m. away). The bulet moves faster than the speed of sound (1224 km per hour). It would take a split second for the bulet to hit its target. If you need to lead at, its by a couple of centemetres, not several meaters like in halo. I dont think they should keep tht shot leading, and if they do keep it, it shold be very small ( a couple of centemeters, maximum one foot or something like that).

  • 09.01.2006 3:05 PM PDT

Now, in the quantum moment before the closure, when all become one. One moment left. One point of space and time. I know who you are. You are destiny.

Posted by: Iggwilv
The bullet should travel like it does in real life. If your pointing at the target and fire it should hit the target.

  • 09.01.2006 3:05 PM PDT
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Recon makes a good point, I must say, but Halo PC's leading was unnessassary.

But game developers should always abide by this rule:
Gameplay > Realism

If you want realism, join the army.

  • 09.01.2006 3:29 PM PDT
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Posted by: DivX
If you want realism, join the army.

Like, I once thought about joining the army, right? I mean, it would just be like a first-person shooter except with better graphics. But what if I die out there, huh? I'm dead, gone for good! I heard there are no spawn points out there.

/FPS Doug XD

America's Army is a pretty leet, exciting game that's also very realistic. Kudos to the makers of the game, they made a very realistic simulation of the American soldier and made it a whole lot of fun. And it's free to boot.

  • 09.01.2006 4:19 PM PDT
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actually, i believe that America's Army was made by the army. Or was that a diffrent game?

Anywase, I think that the major problem with the leading is in the netcode. I believe that teh H2PC team will make a great netcode *or they will get trampled by tousands of mawzors*

  • 09.01.2006 4:53 PM PDT

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