Halo 1 & 2 for PC
This topic has moved here: Subject: HaloGen has been FOX'd.
  • Subject: HaloGen has been FOX'd.
Subject: HaloGen has been FOX'd.
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Posted by: a Grunt
What, wait, Halogen DIDN'T ask for permission first? That's so mind boggling stupid the notion didn't occurr to me.

Well, they more or less kind of deserved to lose those three years of their lives. I don't try to get in a girl's pants until at least after dinner!

Posted by: Apoc the stunter
Rcon 54 pwns

  • 09.17.2006 6:43 AM PDT
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Posted by: MASTER CHEIF 100
why are the moderators lettering white?

Why not?

  • 09.17.2006 5:49 PM PDT
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because mods *and employees* are special. Mods Have white txt to set them appart from the rest of the posts. Employees have yellow to just be awsomistic.

*correct me if i'm wrong*

  • 09.18.2006 9:30 AM PDT
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Alright, can we all agree to disagree here? Microsoft may have been a bit aggressive in pressuring for a shutdown of this mod, but technically they were within their legal rights. It's a shame, really, as Recon Number 54 admits, but it was expected to end this way, was it not?

As for further down the road, what's to stop this same mod team from eventually coming back - this time with their own base engine for a completely standalone game - and asking Bungie for a go-ahead to proceed with development? I'm sure it would make everyone happy, and all of the existing Halogen content could be transitioned over to the new engine. This goes hand-in-hand with the statement earlier of modding talent eventually returning to work with the IP holder after a cease-and-desist. The old saying "If you can't beat them, join them" fits perfectly here.

I would be more than happy to act as a representative or a point of contact for such a venture, provided Microsoft doesn't threaten nuking of the project. A future joint venture would be the best way for Halogen to continue on, and probably the most feasible.

Anyone care to offer a ruling?

  • 09.19.2006 2:30 AM PDT
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Sorry if this is a repeat but there's around 6 pages of basically the same whining regarding this issue and I didn't have the time to read them all.

To all those bashing MS/Bungie for 'foxing' this mod, it's quite simple: If you don't protect your own IP/trademark/brand name, NOBODY ELSE WILL. There is no government agency that keeps an eye out for your personal IP. It is YOUR responsibility to make sure your ideas aren't being co-opted by someone else and YOUR responsibility to bring it to the attention of the co-opters and YOUR responsibility to get the authorities involved if need be. How can you fault MS/Bungie for protecting their own intellectual property? It's a damned profitable property and well worth protecting! The consequences of not policing your own work are visible everywhere you look nowadays:

Why do you think all facial tissue products in the US are collectively known as Kleenex?
Why do you think all cola flavored products are collectively known as Coke? (yes, Pepsi is still referred to as Coke more than you think)
Why do you think every TV network on the planet shows 'It's a Wonderful Life' every year during the Christmas season? (the owners let the copyright lapse, propelling the film into the public domain (nobody actually owns it any more), so it's free to show on any station, at any time).

That's right kids! These companies didn't do a very good job of protecting their IP. Once you let one person/company get away with basically stealing your IP, others will jump on the bandwagon and eventually there is no more legal recourse because your IP has become a generic catch-all for the idea/product you created in the first place. Go read up on the Steinburger guitar company and their IP protection nightmares for another good example.

For those of you angry about this mod, or any mod getting 'foxed' for that matter, aim the blame directly at the mod team's leader for not doing his/her homework, NOT the IP owners.

And there isn't anything 'fair' about using someone else's IP, for monetary gain or not, without at least letting the IP owners know what your plans are. Even if the Halogen team didn't get any money from the release of the mod, they would certainly get reputation from it. In many cases, that's better than money.

  • 09.19.2006 10:22 AM PDT
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Six pages? How my thread has grown!

I'd just like to post some worthy news as there is a petition for HaloGen to allow production on it to continue. Go check it out if you want.

  • 09.19.2006 12:37 PM PDT
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I still love C&C and Zero hour. ohh massing 60 stealth apaches. anyway the halo mod i would have paid at least forty bucks.

  • 09.19.2006 12:44 PM PDT
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Dude, C&C Generals is basically a huge fragfest in RTS form.

  • 09.19.2006 12:53 PM PDT

Don't follow in my footsteps; I walk into walls
my 360s blog

I posted a damn likely explanation as to why this happened

  • 09.19.2006 2:57 PM PDT
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And nobody cared. Because it stated the obvious.

  • 09.19.2006 2:58 PM PDT

Don't follow in my footsteps; I walk into walls
my 360s blog

Posted by: Master Kim
And nobody cared. Because it stated the obvious.

this plus the aforementioned rumour is either a damn wierd coincidence or why this -blam!- up thing happened

  • 09.19.2006 3:00 PM PDT

Get Marathon Here
Get Marathon 2 and Infinity Here

Technically speaking...unless Halogen was in direct competition with a Microsoft product, there is no reason for Microsoft to care.

The number of highly popular webcomics, and fanfictions, out there, all use as much or more things from the Haloverse than Halogen was, yet their not shut down.

Halogen was free, and in fact I think there are fanfictions that are even more popular than this game was, so why axe it, as apposed to much more popular media that is in fact in direct competition with existing and future Halo products sharing that media?

This isn't just some random speculation, logically speaking Halogen really was the least threat to Microsoft out of everything. Halo is popular as a FPS, it will continue to be an FPS, and Bungie is not working on another game, as they have said, their entire staff is busy either working on Halo 3, or busy working on Halo 3.

And last I checked, Halo is a Bungie copyright, not a Microsoft copyright, and so unless Bungie has given another developer the green light to take Halo and make an RTS (not likely, Bungie is stingy with their creations, just look at the steps they have taken with the Halo movie, they even threw out a script that Microsoft paid a million dollars for, because it wasn't good enough), there will never be competition between a fan made, free, mod using Halo content, and a true Halo product.

Now this implies, through no small leap of logic, that Microsoft has intentions with Halo beyond Halo 3, the movie, and the upcomming novels.

Are they going to try and get Bungie to make a Halo RTS, and axing Halogen is a pre-emptive strike to stop a highly popular Halo based RTS from taking market share? Is Bungie going to let another developer make a Halo RTS, and just not telling us in typical Bungie fashon?

And a far out theory: Is Microsoft going to aquire Slipstream Productions, and this was just a move to keep them from going to far on a project that Microsoft wants done using a next gen engine? Not likely, though.

The first two possibilities are exciting in their own way, an official Halo RTS, something every RTS fanboy has craved since they first saw Cortana...er...I mean, Halo: Combat Evolved.

Best of luck to Slipstream, I am sure we are going to see something awsome out of them in the future. (And on a personal note, should I win the lottery, I am sending them a fair chunk of it, they have tallent, and could go far, they just need a little money.)

  • 09.19.2006 6:59 PM PDT
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dude, this really sucks...

bummer man...

wait a sec... Master Kim? wasn't i playing against u yesterday on Halo PC? lol u were the... well i wont get angry at u here, we'll keep that to Halo PC.


Posted by: Master Kim
Dude, C&C Generals is basically a huge fragfest in RTS form.


C&C may be popular, but i prefer Starcraft by a landslide.

GO STARCRAFT!!!

but seriously, Halogen... man i cant believe it. well its M$ so i can believe it, but still...

  • 09.19.2006 7:33 PM PDT
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milk, did you not read the past 5 pages? over those 5 pages were a huge list of why bungie/ms stopped the Halogen team.

The reason in short is that Bungie is a game company. This game comapny is a part of Microsoft Game Studio, which in turn is part of Microsoft. That said, what is Bungie's is also Microsoft's. What they did was that they protected their Intellecual Property *IP* from being used in a game that they did not produce. This creation of the mod took elements from the Halo Universe and used them without the permission of Bungie/Microsoft. They violated copywrite laws, AKA they plagerized someone elses work.

Lets say I have a map for Halo *which I* do...* and I am creating this map. This is perfectly legal since they released the Halo Editing Kit *HEK*. Now I can do almost anything I wan't with the Halo Engine and Tools. But I can not take any of Bunge's models and use them in a diffrent game without Bungie's explicit approval.

Here I am, working on my map and I am creating and using things from the StarCraft Universe. This would not be legal, StarCraft is owned by a diffrent company *Blizzard Entertainment, part of Vindini Universal* and I am using their IP without permission. They can easily shut down my mod, and if I do not abide by their requests, they can take me to court. Now, if I went and asked Blizz/Vindini if I can use their IP *and they say yes* then I have to abide by any rules they lay down in creating my mod. Then I can release my StarCraft mod for Halo *with thanks to Blizz for letting me be able to this awsomistic mod*.

Heres another example:
I'm working on my map and I'm almost done. I have people helping me to test my map before I release it *called Beta testing*. This map is my IP, but anything I did not create in it is not my IP. Now, one of my beta testers decide to be a sleaze ball and release the map saying that it is his and its all his creation. Thats BAD. He just stole my IP, my map, my 2 years of work! Heres where I get fuzzy on what I can do. Seeing as I created the map, I may be able to take some kind of legal action. Otherwise, I can write a good, convincing letter to the moding/maping community about this shizball and have him "punished" by getting him the title "content ripper". This would effectively get a black mark on his name and would not be welcome anyware seeing as he is not to be trusted.

Both of these examples I have written are just that, examples. Neither has happened to me, but I'm sure that somewhere, sometime this has happened.

  • 09.19.2006 8:31 PM PDT

-GtG-

Posted by: Recon Number 54

As to Microsoft's motivations and corporate stance on modding, as well as the actions (or non-actions) against other mods that are using Halo content in games, anyone who is not within MS legal would simply be speculating. There is not enough information to make (IMO) a definitive call as to "why" or "what" their motivations are/were.

It is not a requirement for an IP holder to defend against each and every use of their IP. They can and do chose when and where they want to act. They certainly don't have to "warn" someone. Hell, a C&D is actually a warning. It states, "if you don't stop now, we will see you in court, have a nice day."


No, no one outside MS Legal can know "why" or "what" their motivations are. It still smells funny, though, especially since this project has been on the radar for three years.

The community, their supporters, and even the folks at Bungie are (based on public statements that I have read) all disappointed and saddened that this turned out the way that it did. It truly is unfortunate. Some very hard, but incredibly valuable lessons were learned, not only by the main players, but much of the community who has observed and discussed this matter.

I haven't seen any public statements by Bungie or Microsoft on this, unless you count Frankie's comment about certain fan creations treading in shady legal water in the Update a few months back. Anyone have any links? Also, this brings up another interesting point...

I'm not exactly sure how Bungie is legally structured under Microsoft. They're a lot more isolated than a traditional 1st party development studio, but they're not exactly a 2nd party studio, like Rare was in their relationship with Nintendo. Either way, they have some independence within Microsoft -- and a whole lot of clout. If they didn't have a problem with the mod, and it was someone being overzealous in legal, couldn't someone at Bungie pick up a phone and call off the legal dogs?

Honestly, I'm really most pissed off because I really, really wanted to play this game. Slipstream's new production is a WWII based mod for Star Wars:EAW. Snooze.

-GtG-

  • 09.19.2006 9:22 PM PDT
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So many long posts.
Someone PM Frankie, see if we can get this in the news.

  • 09.20.2006 5:15 AM PDT
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well now. This totaly makes sence! Holy crud on a stick!

so we actually may see the real reason why HaloGen was halted. MS/Bungie was protecting their ip and preventing any rts conversions.

  • 09.27.2006 3:03 PM PDT
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Posted by: Boo_Diddly
well now. This totaly makes sence! Holy crud on a stick!

so we actually may see the real reason why HaloGen was halted. MS/Bungie was protecting their ip and preventing any rts conversions.

It all makes sense now!

And that reason is Halo Wars.

  • 09.27.2006 3:33 PM PDT
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thats what i jsut said -.-

  • 09.27.2006 3:39 PM PDT
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http://www.halowars.com/

  • 09.27.2006 6:14 PM PDT
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Right! I stated this in my thread I created about Halo Wars and discussed that HW was the reason MS closed down Halo Gen. That is, before it got hijaxed and disappeared into an alternate dimension after being sucked through a wormhole. It's now nowhere to be found!!

  • 09.27.2006 7:14 PM PDT
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sorry, i sat on it and it got sucked up my... j/k =þ

  • 09.27.2006 7:16 PM PDT