Bungie Universe
This topic has moved here: Subject: Jjaro/Forerunner Speculation based on Clarke (brand SPNKn new)
  • Subject: Jjaro/Forerunner Speculation based on Clarke (brand SPNKn new)
Subject: Jjaro/Forerunner Speculation based on Clarke (brand SPNKn new)
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

The Following post contains spoilers for Clarke's Odyssey series.

I read 2001: A Space Odyssey a few months ago, and recently
began reading 3001, and the old Marathon/Halo juices started
flowing and I decided to write about it.

In the Odyssey series, there is a race that is referred to in 3001
as "The First Born." This race started out as any other race, but
as their technology improved and their machines became better
than their bodies, they started transferring their brains into
mechanical structures, then they eventually gave that up and
became what was essentially spaceships. "The First Born" went
throughout the universe in search of potential Minds to encourge
and protect, because what The First Born valued most was the
Mind. They helped many species, including humans, to reach
their potential as intellegent people. After a while The First
Born became pure energy, but what they left behind was a
kind of trail for other species to follow in their footsteps.

There are some obvious similarities to the Jjaro and Forerunner
in the Bungieverse, but what do these parallels imply? In the
Odyssey series, The First Born left behind these strange
monoliths that are completely black, and refract no light at all.
The first of these was found in 2001, in the Tycho crater.
(Marathon fans get a kick out of that one, and an interesting
side note is the spacesuit the scientists wore on the Moon
was simply called a Mk IV =) The second was found on one
of Saturn's Moons. I can't remember if it was Ganymede,
Europa, or something else entirely, but wherever it was, it
was much bigger than the one on the moon, and much, much
stranger.

The final monolith was found on Earth in Africa in the year
2513. There are some parallels to Halo here, with the date
of the monolith's discovery close to the Halo timeline, and
it's location in Africa. (New Mombasa, Zanzibar) Makes
you wonder what kind of Jjaro/Forerunner artifacts are
present on Earth and it's Moon. Here's something taken from
the Marathon story page.
The Jjaro were a mysterious race that
disappeared from our galaxy millions of
years ago, leaving behind military and
civilian outposts on the moons of many
habitable worlds.

Sounds a lot like 2001 to me.

If we assume Bungie took some influence from the Odyssey books,
then we can make a few conjectures, the first of which is the human
relation to the Jjaro/Forerunner race. I don't think Humans are/were
Jjaro or Forerunner, but they were a kind of experiment, designed
to unlock the potential of the human race, and most likely races
across the Universe. The humans were a great success because
they are innovative, while other races like the ones that make up
the Covenant, (presumably of Forerunner "origin") are not quite the
same.

Now lets have a look at what the Jjaro/Forerunner left behind,
Chiefly Halo. (pardon the pun) The relationship between 343 and
117 creates a lot of confusion, but I think some conjectures based
on Clarke's novels can help.

First of all, what do you think 343 actually sees the Chief as? What
does he see the human race as? If the Jjaro/Forerunner were a
race that had gone beyond flesh, then they could probably reverse
the effect as well. The human's extreme intellect may have
fooled 343 into thinking that Humans were some kind of "machine"
or vessel for the Transport of a Jjaro/Forerunner. After all, if you
were basically a computer, you would need some kind of vessel
when you had to kick some ass, so the Human body, while a
weak instrument, may have been enough to confuse humans with
Forerunner.

I wouldn't be much of a speculator if I didn't give any in-game
support, now would I?

343 GS says this:
Your environment suit should serve you well when the Flood
begins to alter the atmosphere. You are a good planner.

But he said this earlier:
These Sentinels will supplement your combat system. But, I
suggest you upgrade to at least a Class Twelve combat skin.
Your current model only scans as a Class Two, which is ill suited
for this kind of work.

Why the difference between Environment suit, and Combat
skin? Master Chief has his armor, and his body. The only
other thing I can see the "Combat Skin" as is 117's body,
which would make sense if the Forerunner used biological
"machines" to do their dirty work.

  • 10.16.2004 12:16 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Exalted Mythic Member

DMUKYA
Proud member of Eagle 117's theory group, The Watchers
Another great theorist group is Avignon
Interested in the mysteries within all of Bungie's games? Check out Theory of Unification
For the Biblical allegorist in you, there's מִכְמַן
Enjoy reading or writing sci-fi or fantasy? Come to New Horizons

Pretty interesting. I think this is the first theory on the Odyssey series, but still a very good theory.

  • 10.16.2004 12:29 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Oh, I forgot to mention the new Halo 2 sound track. Incubus has
Four movements, each numbered and titled, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and
4th Movement of the Odyssesy. There were also four books in
the Odyssey series. Perhaps a coincidence, perhaps not.

  • 10.16.2004 12:38 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Good work, as I'm sure the people at bungie have delved into lots of science fiction and fantasy novels, i'm sure you're not too far off... good work on noting the spacesuits from 2001.
Another universe you'll be interested in doing a little "research" would Larry Niven's Known universe books, which include the Pak, Man Kzin Wars, Neutron Star, and the Ringworld Trilogy (!).

  • 10.18.2004 6:54 AM PDT

Ach! Was ist los?

Posted by: eMCee
The second was found on one
of Saturn's Moons. I can't remember if it was Ganymede,
Europa, or something else entirely, but wherever it was, it
was much bigger than the one on the moon, and much, much
stranger.


Just to clarify...

In the original book, it was one of Saturn's moons. For some reason, Stan Kubrick changed it to a Jovian moon in the film. Arthur C. Clarke decided to keep it at Jupiter for the sequels in order to avoid confusing people who had only seen the movie.

--Sgt. Smith thinks it's time to go and find those books again.

  • 10.18.2004 9:31 AM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Thanks for the comments guys, and I really appreciate the
compliments.

Blackmarch,
Thanks for the suggestions.
I haven't read any of those books yet, but I do plan on it. The one
book that seems to be most elusive however is Starhammer.
I can't find that anywhere.

Thanks for clearing that up BobBQ. It makes much more
sense now.

You make a good point Recon. The "Combat Skin" could mean
many things. The main reason I interpreted it that way was the
idea of the Jjaro being beings of pure energy. (I'm assuming
Jjaro are Forerunner here) At the end of Marathon, it's almost
as if the player becomes a God. Maybe the Jjaro turned him
into pure energy, or something like the "Star Child" that Dave
Bowman becomes. For some reason or another, the Security
Officer keeps manifesting himself as a Cyborg. In the final
screen of Infinity, the speaker says:

"Yet a cannot help but remember one enigma, A Hybrid, Elusive
destroyer. . .but you were dead a thousand times. . .A man long
dead, gratfted to Machines your builders did not understand."

I really don't see why 117 and the SO can't be the same guy.
A being of pure energy might have the ability to simply manifest
its organic self in a womb. If this is the case with 117, he has a
keen sense of symbolism because he ressurects himself in the
Eridanus system in Elysium city. (a kind of Greek version of Heaven)
The Eridanus system is also 26.6 lightyears away from Sol,
and a Marathon is about 26 miles. That could be a coincidence,
but it made me smile.

Someone also errantly posted this in The Septagon, but I don't
know if it's true or not.
The subject was "Master Chief was the guard in Marathon"
Posted by: Vae Victus
I know that there is whole other page of forums that this should go under, but oh well. In this months issue of XBN, Alex Seropian states "I don't thin you ever find that out, but it's the same character... God, we've never said that before, but it's completely obvious. Cortana isn't in Marathon, but there are three A.I.'s in there that came from the same stylistic story line."
So there it is directly from one of the lead developers. Marathon and Halo are connected. The last question is how will this play into the Halo story?

Again, I don't have the newest XBN, so I don't know if this is true
or not.

  • 10.18.2004 12:21 PM PDT

"FOR YOUR OWN PROTECTION: Ensure brain is engaged before putting keyboard into gear."
Need a ninja?
Got a cheater? [email]h2cheats@microsoft.com[/email]
Forum Rules.
FAQ.
I'm certifiable.

Posted by: Blackmarch
Another universe you'll be interested in doing a little "research" would Larry Niven's Known universe books, which include the Pak, Man Kzin Wars, Neutron Star, and the Ringworld Trilogy (!).

Good news; the Ringworld series is now a Quadrology. (If that's a word.) I have a copy of Ringworld's Children just across the room from me right now. Interesting stuff; I never thought that the Ringworld floor would seem fragile before...

-- Steve thinks that the Odyssey series did have an influence on Marathon and Halo, but doubts that there's wholesale robbery from it. Unless Cortana reports a faulty component in the AE-35 module...

  • 10.18.2004 2:54 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Posted by: Anton P Nym
-- Steve thinks that the Odyssey series did have an influence on Marathon and Halo, but doubts that there's wholesale robbery from it. Unless Cortana reports a faulty component in the AE-35 module...

Good point, but I think it's also worth mentioning that The Flood are
extremely similar to The Vang from Starhammer. While I haven't
read the book (yet), the HSP makes it clear that The Vang are very
similar to The Flood.

On similar page, I remember reading in the Bungie Scrapbook that
Jason Jones once worked on a project called "Mosaic." With all
the influences from some of the greatest science fiction of all time,
you might call Halo a "Mosaic" of science fiction.
Here's the quote:

"Jason divided his time between Marathon and another 3D project
dubbed Mosaic. (All that is known about Mosaic is that it had nothing
to do with the web browser of the same name and that Jason is
extremely reluctant to discuss it.)"

I really have nothing to back this up, but it sounded like it might
be possible.



[Edited on 10/18/2004 6:32:19 PM]

  • 10.18.2004 6:32 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

I think Mosaic is an apt description of what they had/used for inspiration to make their own unique universe and storylines, the reason I say that is because you'll find many themes in both games from a lot of different sci-fi stories, but none of them (with probably the exception of the ringworld..) puts it in the game so defined and similar so that you can say," Aha that element comes from this sci-fi story or this one..."

[Edited on 10/19/2004 7:18:40 AM]

  • 10.19.2004 7:18 AM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

this is off topic but when 343 tries to trick 117 into activating Halo Cortana tells him that activating Halo will destroy the universe then 343 says"this one ring would not destroy the entire universe, but if the other ones blew up to then than the universe would be destroyed" but Cortana says that it will only destroy the Flood's food materail things wouldn't it destroy the Flood to????

  • 10.19.2004 10:32 AM PDT