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This topic has moved here: Subject: Shiska's Locked MLG VS Anit-MLG thread
  • Subject: Shiska's Locked MLG VS Anit-MLG thread
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Posted by: KSI SEVEN 7
To the second section shoot yourself in the foot NOW. Who made the topic? I did? So who if you cant get what im talking about, you dont get the topic right? If you dont get the topic how can you post intelligently? You, without psychic abilities, cant.

Big A's point was (and I hope I'm not putting words into his mouth) was that do you want talk about how moderator bias affects the forums/game or do you want to talk about MLG?

So if the topic of MLG is a no go (for reason that have been stated again and again and reasons you seem to not disbute), you don't get to start the topic about bias and then change it to MLG. I guess none of us seem to understyand what it is that you actually want to talk about.

You contend that moderator bias hurts the forums. I have yet to see that. maybe you are saying that Shishkas's few comments on the topic of MLG posters (and ONE comment about MLG itself) have hurt the rep of MLGophyles everywhere... well, I think MLGophyles did that themselves (not all, but the most vocal ones).

  • 09.18.2006 2:11 PM PDT
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Location: Outlaws' Summit.

Alright KSI, settle down please.

Remember, bias exists, and if the tone of the Forum is "Don't talk about MLG," then so be it.

I know you're hurting, and the rest of the MLG community. But you have to understand- MLG didn't make Halo 2.


So just be patient or stick to customs. And relax in the arguements.

  • 09.18.2006 2:12 PM PDT
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  • Exalted Legendary Member

Do not panic, or you will fail.

I am glad Iceman happened to be on now. His points are as good as anybody on Bungie.net. This thread's score: Iceman-108 KSI-0

KSI, if you are going to keep posting please make a good point. And yes, I did copy the score thing from fatboyslimbz.

  • 09.18.2006 2:15 PM PDT
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Posted by: KSI SEVEN 7
2nd section I really cant make out through the bad grammar, not insulting but serious. I get some of it, but you lost me when you were going to say why you didnt listen to shiska's post, and then you didnt. So im not gonna post on that BC i dont know what you are talking about(next time this happens to you, follow my lead mmmmkay?)

His grammer was fine. Not sure why you didn't unerstand it.

3rd section He didnt attack both sides, he attacked the MLG playstyle, not the problem of flaming, and crap talking. I do however agree that flaming, and crap talking shouldn't be allowed.
He did discuss MLG/Anti-MLG. You quoted ONE phrase referring to MLG playstyle (again we come back to that one phrase again and again).

The last section is funny to me, being that you posted in this thread saying that you didnt know what you were talking about. I acknowlege that I dont see every thing that goes on here, there are not enough hours in the day. Lastly please stop quoting me at the bottem of everything that you post unless you are going to be refering to somthing in the text. It just makes the pages longer, and wastes server space
He said he didn't quite understand what YOU were talking about. And no one seems to get it. And yet he seemed to address it all the same. I guess we just don't understand what you are trying to say.

Let me address this to you directly:
1) What, exactly, do you feel the effect that Shishka's "biased" comments (or any moderators' "biased" comments) have had on the forum?
2) What, exactly, do you want to see changed?
3) What points have we not addressed to you?
4) What points have we addressed to you that you disagree with and why?

  • 09.18.2006 2:18 PM PDT
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  • Exalted Legendary Member

Do not panic, or you will fail.

All of the people you just mentioned made excellent points about this topic.

[Edited on 9/18/2006]

  • 09.18.2006 2:25 PM PDT
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Posted by: KSI SEVEN 7
FxT I was here, I understand why, and I agree that it needed to stop, but here is the simple truth, a "no more flaming, or flame baiting" rule wouldve worked, instead he stopped any MLG based playlist from being truly developed. I know THC and RHC, but RHC isnt MLG, and THC realisticly was the result of so many MM sucks thread.

You apparently weren't very attentive back then. The playlist MLG idea had been stated as NOT going to happen way before the topic was banned. And they tried the no flaming/bring the rhetoric down warnings for weeks, to no avail. So not that wouldn't have worked. In fact, it didn't work.

  • 09.18.2006 2:25 PM PDT

Go Chiefs

There's another point that's worth mentioning. Bungie has all the game data. They know how many custom games are played under MLG rules and how many unique players (or gamertags at least) play them. If there was enough data to support a MLG playlist I'm sure they would have done it.

They don't need the forums to dicate the direction MM takes. Sure Optimatch helps and it's always nice to get some feedback but these forums represent a very small number of players. Very little was lost by ending the MLG discussions.

  • 09.18.2006 2:37 PM PDT
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125,000 registered members at MLGpro.com but they seem to have a "very small majority" represented mabey all mlg players are pygmie foreigners, making them a very small(pygmies are very small), and minorities(foreigners are usually considered minorities)
Said with notable sarcasm. Moving on to the next quote.

125,000? Then what makes the entire Halo community? You're not making any sense.

OK... this one is really sad, and I honestly thing that someone should ban themsleves. The bold text is an indication of how you allow your bias to reach into your ability to post. Personally I bias which ive seen before, example... a thread called "Bungie Loves Bad Kids" where you were the first to mention MLG and flamed it, when that wasnt the topic at hand.

The second sentence is quoted for all of the forum users, shiska is right, fun is an OPINION. If someone's idea of a fun game is no sheilds needlers 1v1 on containment that is their OPINION and you shouldnt be mad at them for a personal preference. If they ask it to be a playlist, and being that is probably only wanted by 3 people debate them as to why, but you cant debate their OPINION, so stop trying.

What exactly are you trying to say here, that we can debate opinions but not facts?

Once again, I agree that we not the entire community, but 125,000 registered users at MLGpro.com. Everyone is qualified to have an opinion, because an opinion is a personal preference. In the last sentence you can easily interpret "we" as either the mods, or as the "casual gamers" more commonly called anti-MLG. If he ment mods, good, if not once again bias rears its ugly head.
Again, you talking about members of MLG. How do you know that 125,000 MLG players play Halo 2? How do you know how many players are there in total in the Halo community?

Here we go, "we at bungie do not dislike MLG" read the bold quote 2 up, where he says MLG made the game watered down. So do you dislike MLG or not? Once again bias.
THAT is Shishka's opinion and YOU are debating it. How do you even know everyone at Bungie hates MLG? Proof?

Community dominance, WHAT COMMUNITY? The gaming community? If so, than the best players are always the ones looked too. These might be a lil off...Basketball, Shaq...Football Manning...baseball, A-ROD...Hockey, Ovechkin...and Gaming, FB. MLG isnt attempting community dominance, that would be like saying that last year the Steelers are trying dominate teh football community, even the people palying flag football in their backyards BC they are competative, and think that flag takes less skill BC there is almost no running game. It makes no sense, we ask for a few playlists, not ALOT, 3 tops, then that leaves 10 more for EVERYONE else.
Bungie already gave you 2 playlist that any pro community asked for: Team Hardcore and Rumble Hardcore. Sadly, they have lost one which is Rumble Hardcore. Was it Bungie's fault? No. It was everyone who asked for one but never or barely played it.

Now here is the link to Shiska's unprevoked cracking of MLG... I wonder if he took a 7 day vacation from the forums
Now ill tell everyone on this, Chugsta NEVER said MLG, and later on in the thread his entire post is quoted and MLG isnt mentioned, page 4. Someone noticed this in the thread... IIDWells55XII

Shishka didn't took a vacation, but Chugsta certainly does.

I love how the original post doesn't so much as mention MLG and Shishka has to insert an MLG slam and show his hatred for it.
*cough*Chugsta is showing hatred against casual gamers *cough*

On the other hand, Shishka uses MLG as an example of a community that doesn't represent Halo 2. Once again, MLG did not created Halo 2. No other community created Halo 2. Bungie is the one and only.

The original topic creator did a good job addressing this playlist maturely despite the stupid thread title. Team Carnage is an absolute mess of a playlist.
OMFG do not play the damn playlist of you do not like it.

BTW the total playlist usage for Team Carnage is 7.75% according to the "Playlist Usage Stats" so Team Carnage proved pretty popular for a lot of people.

The entire thread is a big read, but people should really check it out. Eventually chugsta was banned for his extreme disrespect, by calling achronos obtoose, which achronos had called him earlier in the thread.. It was a good thread, which everyone shol take a read on
We did, and now look at the outcome of it.

Davesterio says mlg in the 12th post
No comment on that one.

Well, here's Yayap's opinion. Me would like to see if you still agree on everyone having a qualified opinion.

[Edited on 9/18/2006]

  • 09.18.2006 2:40 PM PDT
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Erm, KSI, I think you should leave. You're the only one here who doesn't understand what Achronos' point is, but you're trying to tell him we all don't understand. You claim that his poor grammar make his posts senseless, while it's just your inability to correctly read a well written post. Achronos is making perfect sense, to me at least, and is arguing his point magnificantly (certainly showing more restraint then most of us would). You stopped arguing your point a long time ago. Now you're just sitting there hypocritically insulting Achronos' grammar, telling him how he should quote your posts (which, I might add, makes no sense. I does not take up more room and I can tell you with 100% certainty that the server space it might waste, assuming it wastes any, is so negligable- you're just making yourself look bad) and poking fun at him for "crying" before he had a chance to respond. You aren't helping the MLG cause here, and I think you should start responding to his points rather then groundlessly attacking his person.

Posted by: KSI SEVEN 7
LOL, im so mad... im on my laptop and i accidently clicked the inside bungie button instead of reply, on my first response so here we go again. Im just gonna answer the questions instead of doing the whole response. It looks like it will be shorter, and easier for others to deal with, im just new to doing it like this, so im prolly gonna screw it up(im used to people with their own agenda trying to make me look bad)

1) The actions of a leader effect that of their followers. Mods=leaders, the kids that follow them and go Agreed=followers. If the leader says yea thats good, or that sucks, the followers are going to agree in higher %s than the average person, BC that is their leader. Also people are less likly to debate because they are mods, and if i debate with them people are going to gang up on me, or ill get banned. Look at this thread, how many followers have come in here and hit me with a thoughtless 1 liner because im debating the mods?

2) I would like to not see bias in rules, and official bungie policies. I would like to also see any topic allowed, within reason, and instead of stoping certain topics, take off more behaviors. I.E. if there is MLG/Anit-MLG flaming, take off Flaming, and Flame Baiting

3) Why the things ive mentioned in #2 havent been changed.

4) That both sides were treaded equally, obvious on this one, but what my point is that he attacked gametypes, not peoples actions, and he didnt do that to MM, there are a few more I could add but that is the just of it.


Now, keep in mind I don't know much about MLG games or their community, but what I've seen so far isn't too impressive.

First paragraph. Let me start this off with saying that mods will never ban you for voicing an opinion, so stop acting like they will. Not only that, but I'll be one of the first people to go against a ruling if I think it's unjust, no matter who makes it. You haven't accused me of being some sort of mindless drone yet, so I thought I'd just get that out of the way to make sure that misunderstanding doesn't come up :) I won't deny that moderators have a little following. Sure, people will agree with them. But what you're missing here is the fact that Shishka wasn't getting upset with only MLG. He was also mad at Anti-MLG. Therefore none of his little groupies would, according to you, favor either one as worse.

Second paragraph. It's not as easy as it sounds to allow MLG threads without flaming. That would require huge amounts of censorship. The people on this forum who "debate" about MLG tend to get riled up very easily, and to keep their flames from inciting even more flaming, you would be forced to edit almost every post. It's simply not feasable. Also, you'll never get something that is unbaised. Ever. To be biased is to be human, and I hope you can see that. Now they can try to make it as objective as possible, but they won't make a playlist they know will just be a disaster.

Fourth paragraph. He attacked the gametype, yes. But is that wrong? Since when is a mod not allowed to say what he thinks of a gametype? If the mods fans want to debate it with you, prove them wrong. It can't be hard if all they're going by is Shishka's post.

[Edited on 9/18/2006]

  • 09.18.2006 2:55 PM PDT

Go Chiefs

Posted by: KSI SEVEN 7
1) The actions of a leader effect that of their followers. Mods=leaders, the kids that follow them and go Agreed=followers. If the leader says yea thats good, or that sucks, the followers are going to agree in higher %s than the average person, BC that is their leader. Also people are less likly to debate because they are mods, and if i debate with them people are going to gang up on me, or ill get banned. Look at this thread, how many followers have come in here and hit me with a thoughtless 1 liner because im debating the mods?


Although I agree there are those that treat the mods/gold text with awe that isn't the case here. Your argument is flawed and your debating skills are weak. No one is taking your side because you're coming off like a stubborn ass that isn't willing to see the other side of the coin. Take the advice others have given you and give up.

  • 09.18.2006 3:02 PM PDT
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Posted by: KSI SEVEN 7
LOL, im so mad... im on my laptop and i accidently clicked the inside bungie button instead of reply, on my first response so here we go again. Im just gonna answer the questions instead of doing the whole response. It looks like it will be shorter, and easier for others to deal with, im just new to doing it like this, so im prolly gonna screw it up(im used to people with their own agenda trying to make me look bad)

1) The actions of a leader effect that of their followers. Mods=leaders, the kids that follow them and go Agreed=followers. If the leader says yea thats good, or that sucks, the followers are going to agree in higher %s than the average person, BC that is their leader. Also people are less likly to debate because they are mods, and if i debate with them people are going to gang up on me, or ill get banned. Look at this thread, how many followers have come in here and hit me with a thoughtless 1 liner because im debating the mods?

2) I would like to not see bias in rules, and official bungie policies. I would like to also see any topic allowed, within reason, and instead of stoping certain topics, take off more behaviors. I.E. if there is MLG/Anit-MLG flaming, take off Flaming, and Flame Baiting

3) Why the things ive mentioned in #2 havent been changed.

4) That both sides were treaded equally, obvious on this one, but what my point is that he attacked gametypes, not peoples actions, and he didnt do that to MM, there are a few more I could add but that is the just of it.

So after all of that, you understand why MLG/Anti-MLG is still a no go topic, correct? No? Do you honestly think the debate would be different now? Do you really think that folks have matured that much in the last year? (I point to you at every Clanmatch/1vs1/RHC thread).

I do understand your thoughts about moderator/leadership... except that I don't think the example you gave is a good one. The rift between the pro- and anti-MLG crowds were in effect long before Shishka or any moderators made any comments on the subject. You would have to give another example. But, as to the MLG debate (to touch on it), most anti-MLG folks aren't actually anti-MLG but anti-MLG-ranting. THey just got tired of being called n*obs, etc. This was not caused by Shishka's comments. I just can't see how you can blame that on any of the moderators.

And now number 4. You are basically just fixated that he called MLG "watered down" in passing. Whether or not he used it correctly, it still isn't a big insult. He didn't "attack it." I just can't understand why that has gotten you so upset. I just see no correlation to the rest of BUngie.net forum behavior connected to that one phrase... and since you haven't given me other examples (and I direct you to the vast majority of moderator comments to counter-examples).

It apears, from all your posts in this thread, that you are just upset because someone with white writing said something mildly derogatory about MLG-playtypes. I would have to say you seem over sensitive.

  • 09.18.2006 3:07 PM PDT
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KSI, notice also that I have never said you should leave. That isn't debate, folks. Come on.

  • 09.18.2006 3:08 PM PDT
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So let's get away from your original example, because it is just too loaded. Let us ignore the issue of MLG entirely.

Let us get back to "Should moderators be able to speak their mind." I don't want to use the example you used, because you seem to think it was a big slam on MLG gametypes but no one else sees it that way.

So "Should moderators be allowed to speak their mind?" I say yes. As long as it doesn't violate any of the 'rules.' I just don't see enough evidence (or any evidence) that people have followed them blindly. I would need other examples.

  • 09.18.2006 3:41 PM PDT

"I pledge to punch all switches, to never shoot where I could use grenades, to admit the existence of no level except Total Carnage, to never use caps lock as my "run" key, and to never, ever, leave a single BoB alive."

2B || !2B - Why don't you look Inside the Machine?

Well here is how I see this issue:

[hr]

A) Anti-MLG: People who completely disagree with the MLG playstyle.

-- They have a right to that opinion, but taking that opinion into inappropriate actions is unwise and immature.

B) MLG: People who enjoy fierce competition with little "chaotic" catalysts involved in the game.

-- This opinion was taken from an okay idea and was turned into flame material by both sides.

[hr]

In this case I see that neither side was right in what they did, and it shouldn't have happened. The people who cannonize MLG made ignorant and foolish mistakes, as well as their counterparts the Anti-MLG.

Words are similar to water, anyone can take it and form it into the shape or context they want it. The fact of the matter is that both sides are wrong and need to grow up. Flaming and acting like Children will get you nowhere in life or in a career. If anyone could ever recognize that if they would be:

* Clear
* Mature
* Responsible
* Logical

They might actually have a decent chance of actually get a point across. Doesn't it look better to say:

Hey, I don't really don't like that opinion because it doesn't suit my style of gaming. I would suggest doing this...*elaborate*

Rather than:

OMG! u n00b! ur ideas r lame, you l0ser!!1!!

That might be taking it to the extreme, but that doesn't mean that it can't go beyond that. And in many cases it does, that is why the Thread and Topic were banned officially from the forum.

It was user arrogance and immature attitudes that interfered with reasoning that caused the thread and users to become banned. I propose a challenge, before any of you ever post again...stop and think that if your post can really help someone in any way or add to the discussion. If not, I suggest that you just move on to another topic and try there.

Helping the community by discussion isn't bad, everyone has an opinion. None of which are wrong, there are just better choices. And those better choices can come from collaberation and logic. Positive attitudes and the right mentality can help you accomplish more than flaming or name calling can.

The fact that Shishka vented a wee bit doesn't really affect the purpose of the ban of the Subject and lock of the Topic. Because his logic behind the action, which was decided foremost by Achronos, was correct. Basically people couldn't act like civilized persons on this forum. And by allowing that to continue would be allowing further breaking of the rules to commence. So the simplest solution would be to "cut the head off of the snake." By which I mean it would be easier to end a war before one started.

Biased or not, Shishka did the right thing. We are all human, as indicated by Achronos. And no one can ever be unbiased, it is impossible for humans (at least in this time frame). I state my opinions all of the time, and I always make sure that they can help or contribute in some way that doesn't violate the rules. That my friends, is the essence of true discussion and debate.

[Edited on 9/18/2006]

  • 09.18.2006 3:47 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

Please stop doing that. This is the third time I've had to correct you on that. Chugsta was banned for violating the code of conduct (flamebait, cross-posting, some slurs against other players, violating the play nice rule). He was not banned because a moderator or myself felt slighted.

Your point does not rely on the cause for chugsta being banned anyway - so I don't see why you keep bringing it up, unless you are Chugsta masquerading as a different user.

Posted by: KSI SEVEN 7
First quoted paragraph, thats what they banned chugsta for.

  • 09.18.2006 3:56 PM PDT