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  • Subject: Shiska's Locked MLG VS Anit-MLG thread
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Posted by: KSI SEVEN 7
#18 Having an opinion, and a bias, isnt the topic dude, ALLOWING THAT BIAS TO NEGATIVLY EFFECT THE WAY YOU AS A LEADER PERFOM IN YOUR POSITION IS.
#19 A mods opinion and bias are fine, as long as they act in a professional enough manner when they post
What foolishness. Shishka decided to end the entire ordeal because it was getting out of hand and was disturbing in the way some people treated each other over a game.

I would have done what Shishka did but sooner, in fact. And I really don't give a damn about MLG, or the people that hate it. When I have a problem with it is when it starts to upset the forum. Everyday I see something negative about MLG or something negative about the negative things about MLG. It gets tiring, and I wish it to stop. Now, I am glad to hear that it will.

[Edited on 9/18/2006]

  • 09.18.2006 5:38 PM PDT

-S

Posted by: KSI SEVEN 7
The questions wernt in reforance to the entire thread, it was to the "watered down" comment.

Posting with bias is unprofessional, afterall newscastors have been fired for their bias reaching their job.


I am not a news caster. I do not have to be unbiased. I do not have to pretend that I'm a smiling robot doling out rules on expressionless slips of paper. And, I've already pointed out, the only reason "watered down" is derisive is because you choose to interpret it that way.

What you're trying to imply is that a bias you've chosen to derive from two words is what created the rule prohibiting pro/anti-MLG discussion. To that, I have this to point out:

Posted by: Achronos
Shishka posted that on my instruction - and everything he said in it was true.

...

The point, however, is that the reason the post you reference exists is because everybody on this board did not recognize or discuss the real issues at the core of the difference between the two styles of play. They refused to even consider that the real interesting ideas might exist in the grey area I just described for you. Hence, the banning of that topic from the forum. It was too bad, too, because there is a very interesting discussion buried in there. Many people come here to complain about various aspects of the game, but no one ever thinks about why the game is like it is, or what can be done to fix what they see as problems. They just post back and forth about features they demand to be cut because "they suck", rather than thinking of an actual solution.


Posted by: Achronos
You didn't explain yourself other than to say something about bias in rules is bad (which isn't exactly a big new idea), and you're incorrect in your analysis of the gag order on MLG discussion being an example of this. I didn't have an argument other than to point out your lack of context and proper analysis for your topic. You were the one trying to make a point, remember?


Posted by: Achronos
Again - you talk and talk about bias, but you refuse to acknowledge that your basic assumption is flawed: Shishka did not operate in a vacuum. I told him to shut that topic down on all the forums as it was NEVER going to productive to anyone. While he did vent a little in the actual post, he did equally at both sides, which they deserved.


Posted by: Shishka
I have nothing to do with the creation, maintainance, or removal of Matchmaking playlists. I was not the person that made the decision that there wouldn't be an MLG playlist.

...

Achronos told me to throw down the rule that MLG/Anti-MLG discussion was to be banned from the forums. It is because of the reason in the paragraph above. Stop trying to imply that I came in and ended MLG discussion because I dislike MLG. Once again, my personal opinion of gametypes does not influence decisions made for the playlists. No matter what color my forum text is.

"Watered down" is only negative because you choose to interpret it that way. MLG game types strip away all variety and spontaniety away from Halo in an attempt to meet one subgroup's definition of "skill." Whether or not that definition of skill is more correct than any other is purely subjective. The idea that skill is more important than fun (an idea that many people try to bring to these forums) is also just an opinion, one that does not happen to coincide with the opinion of the majority. The problem, and what motivated me to make that post, wasn't the gametypes; it was the fact that the people coming to the forums to preach the gametypes were presenting themselves as the only people of any importance in the fan community. As I have had to remind people before, and will in all likelihood have to remind them of again, that is not true.


Posted by: Achronos
5. No, it wouldn't, because those already were the rules. The gag order on that topic was put in place because the rules weren't being followed.


It seems to me that the only person here that hasn't read the thread is you, Seven 7.

So what all did I assume? you are using gamestats as 1 that has been throughly defeated in the above text. I made inferences if there was evidence, but I dont think i made any asumptions

You assumed that, because we have no MLG-specific matchmaking playlist, we cannot have any way of knowing how many people would play one if it were there. The very argument that you put forward there also implies that you assume you know better than we do what playlists would be successful and which wouldn't. Both assumptions you've made (and that's just related to that particular comment, not to the number of things you've said throughout this thread) are incorrect.

  • 09.18.2006 5:41 PM PDT

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I think you are taking the phrase "watered down" too literally. I am not Shishka, so I really don't know what he meant, but here it goes:
I think Shishka was using "watered down" as a metaphor. He was trying to say that MLG have gotten Halo 2 to be as basic as they can make it, but still be Halo 2. Shishka can correct me if I'm wrong, but that is how I interpreted what he said.

[Edited on 9/18/2006]

  • 09.18.2006 5:43 PM PDT
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Posted by: KSI SEVEN 7
Posted by: Achronos
1. If we posted internal usage data to everyone, not only would be giving away data to possible competitors that we want to keep to ourselves, but we'd also have to do requests for what people play any other sizeable minority organization. You'll probably think I'm using that as a smokescreen to avoid telling the truth, but I doubt even posting the real numbers would convince you otherwise.
2. MLG style play IS watered down. Specifically, it strives to remove variablity and luck from the game to force the player with the best "skill" to the top levels. As Shishka says, this definition of skill being valid is somewhat debatable, but in a tournament organization like MLG, that's not the point. The point is consistancy. If everyone spawns with a powerful weapon, the winner in a fight is who is better with that gun. But if I just spawn with a SMG, then someone who was lucky to spawn near a better gun will likely have better luck. The arguments to this are full and varied, but the point is that MLG style play is a stripped down set of Halo 2 rules - BY DESIGN. It isn't a flaw of MLG's gametypes - that's how they want them, and it serves their purposes well. I don't understand why you think that is a negative connotation. Maybe that is because everything else in Shishka's post can more clearly be attributed to him talking to the trolls on the forum rather than the gametypes themselves. But if you actually understand the reason for the setup of MLG tournament types, then you'd realize what a non-point you have there.



I understand your meaning, and if he wouldve said somthing like... Your opinion isnt more important than others because you play a different game... that is cool, but It is a watered down game reduced to bare bones in the name of skill... Why say it in a contemptious mannerism, that shows your obvious dislike for MLG. And it ISNT watered down... watered down means somthing has been added to the original mix. Modders water down halo 2 with all types of modded items. MLG refines halo 2 by removing much of the luck from the game. See how terminalogy works? I still want you to answer those 5 or so questions


No. Watered down implies that something has become diluted with water. For instance, let's say he have our mixture. 100% Halo. Watered down is MLG; they replace all the unused weapons and maps with water, if you will. They only use about 50% of the game, hence, we will say it is watered down and the blank 50% is just filled with water.

[Edited on 9/18/2006]

  • 09.18.2006 5:43 PM PDT
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  • Exalted Legendary Member

Do not panic, or you will fail.

*Looking at Shishka's previous post*
Shishka-owned!!!! Look, Shishka just made like the best point in the whole thread. Please actually read it and listen to what he says.

  • 09.18.2006 5:46 PM PDT
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I believe permanent banishment is an IP ban.

[Edited on 9/18/2006]

  • 09.18.2006 5:48 PM PDT

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Ok. Thanks for clearing up the banhammer thing. But still, banning all of the people who flame in MLG/Anti-MLG threads would be an enourmous undertaking. Even though your idea looks good in writing, I do not think it is practical. Just because that "first wave" was banned, that won't stop more people from flaming. I'm sure that people were banned for flaming when they were allowed, so opening that issue back up would just bring back all of the flame wars. I'm not sure about this, but I am also pretty sure the moderators do not get paid. It would be asking a lot of them to just open up the MLG threads, and ban everyone who flames. It is much easier to stop the problem before it can even start. Besides, we should learn from history. History of the forums shows us that MLG threads turn into flamefests, no matter how many people are banned. Bungie is pretty sure they know what will happen, so they just don't allow those threads to develop into anything.

EDIT- Also, if they would ban your IP, you could just change it as easily as you can unplug your telephone. I think it was Shishka who once made that analogy, too.

[Edited on 9/18/2006]

  • 09.18.2006 5:50 PM PDT
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Posted by: roman arrow12
Ok. Thanks for clearing up the banhammer thing. But still, banning all of the people who flame in MLG/Anti-MLG threads would be an enourmous undertaking. Even though your idea looks good in writing, I do not think it is practical. Just because that "first wave" was banned, that won't stop more people from flaming. I'm sure that people were banned for flaming when they were allowed, so opening that issue back up would just bring back all of the flame wars. I'm not sure about this, but I am also pretty sure the moderators do not get paid. It would be asking a lot of them to just open up the MLG threads, and ban everyone who flames. It is much easier to stop the problem before it can even start. Besides, we should learn from history. History of the forums shows us that MLG threads turn into flamefests, no matter how many people are banned. Bungie is pretty sure they know what will happen, so they just don't allow those threads to develop into anything.
Even as stupid as the average poster is here, they'd all eventually get the point. It doesn't take that long to ban someone, and it isn't like you are banning half the forum at once. It is likely that they would only ban two or three people per 'event', depending on how strong the offense is.

  • 09.18.2006 5:53 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

Um, "watered down" refers to something being dilluted. Usually, this reduces the potency or "fullness" of that which is being watered down. In the case of Shishka's post about Halo 2, the MLG ruleset (by design) strips elements of Halo 2 to focus the entire game on that organization's definition of skill. Thus, it is entirely valid to say that it has been watered down. A more descriptive phrase might be bare bones (which Shishka ALSO used in the same post). Regardless, I don't see what is so bad about calling it watered down. Dual weilding is deliberately removed. So is the motion tracker in many cases. The BR is the starting weapon. The plasma pistol is often removed because of how deadly it can be with the BR. Nobody denies them to set their own gametypes - that's what they like. Painting it over with such glowingly postive terms like "refined" doesn't change what is different about it.

And I did answer those questions already.

Posted by: KSI SEVEN 7
I understand your meaning, and if he wouldve said somthing like... Your opinion isnt more important than others because you play a different game... that is cool, but It is a watered down game reduced to bare bones in the name of skill... Why say it in a contemptious mannerism, that shows your obvious dislike for MLG. And it ISNT watered down... watered down means somthing has been added to the original mix. Modders water down halo 2 with all types of modded items. MLG refines halo 2 by removing much of the luck from the game. See how terminalogy works? I still want you to answer those 5 or so questions

  • 09.18.2006 5:54 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
Um, "watered down" refers to something being dilluted. Usually, this reduces the potency or "fullness" of that which is being watered down. In the case of Shishka's post about Halo 2, the MLG ruleset (by design) strips elements of Halo 2 to focus the entire game on that organization's definition of skill. Thus, it is entirely valid to say that it has been watered down. A more descriptive phrase might be bare bones (which Shishka ALSO used in the same post). Regardless, I don't see what is so bad about calling it watered down. Dual weilding is deliberately removed. So is the motion tracker in many cases. The BR is the starting weapon. The plasma pistol is often removed because of how deadly it can be with the BR. Nobody denies them to set their own gametypes - that's what they like. Painting it over with such glowingly postive terms like "refined" doesn't change what is different about it.

And I did answer those questions already.

Posted by: KSI SEVEN 7
I understand your meaning, and if he wouldve said somthing like... Your opinion isnt more important than others because you play a different game... that is cool, but It is a watered down game reduced to bare bones in the name of skill... Why say it in a contemptious mannerism, that shows your obvious dislike for MLG. And it ISNT watered down... watered down means somthing has been added to the original mix. Modders water down halo 2 with all types of modded items. MLG refines halo 2 by removing much of the luck from the game. See how terminalogy works? I still want you to answer those 5 or so questions


I wish he wouldn't listen to you just because your gold text stands out. I corrected him on the "watered down" bit at least two times :(

  • 09.18.2006 5:57 PM PDT
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Posted by: KSI SEVEN 7
Posted by: Shishka
Posted by: Achronos
5. No, it wouldn't, because those already were the rules. The gag order on that topic was put in place because the rules weren't being followed.


It seems to me that the only person here that hasn't read the thread is you, Seven 7.

So what all did I assume? you are using gamestats as 1 that has been throughly defeated in the above text. I made inferences if there was evidence, but I dont think i made any asumptions

You assumed that, because we have no MLG-specific matchmaking playlist, we cannot have any way of knowing how many people would play one if it were there. The very argument that you put forward there also implies that you assume you know better than we do what playlists would be successful and which wouldn't. Both assumptions you've made (and that's just related to that particular comment, not to the number of things you've said throughout this thread) are incorrect.


WOW, I said that you dont have accurate info, and you dont. Do your search variations account for slight MLG variations? Did you add games with 5 second respawns, and 8 second respawns together? What about human weapons, and no duals?
Do you base it on names? BC i have a MLG TS setting called "Chig carries midget" Thus either way your results would be inaccurate.

The rules are never followed, they shoudve been ENFORCED.

If you had a good idea of how many people would play each thing, why make RHC 30 mins and 50 kills? there you go. And if you post somthing that i didnt read from 1 post before mine, consider that right now im on dialup and that dialup+long post=im responding to the post 4 earlier
You said yourself this was about what Shishka said, not MLG. What are you doing talking about MLG, then?

[Edited on 9/18/2006]

  • 09.18.2006 5:57 PM PDT

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Posted by: The Lone Heretic
Posted by: roman arrow12
Ok. Thanks for clearing up the banhammer thing. But still, banning all of the people who flame in MLG/Anti-MLG threads would be an enourmous undertaking. Even though your idea looks good in writing, I do not think it is practical. Just because that "first wave" was banned, that won't stop more people from flaming. I'm sure that people were banned for flaming when they were allowed, so opening that issue back up would just bring back all of the flame wars. I'm not sure about this, but I am also pretty sure the moderators do not get paid. It would be asking a lot of them to just open up the MLG threads, and ban everyone who flames. It is much easier to stop the problem before it can even start. Besides, we should learn from history. History of the forums shows us that MLG threads turn into flamefests, no matter how many people are banned. Bungie is pretty sure they know what will happen, so they just don't allow those threads to develop into anything.
Even as stupid as the average poster is here, they'd all eventually get the point. It doesn't take that long to ban someone, and it isn't like you are banning half the forum at once. It is likely that they would only ban two or three people per 'event', depending on how strong the offense is.


Once again, I understand that this is a good idea. In writing. Most people don't care about being banned, you see all of those threads people make, just to get banned. Because MLG is such a sensititve subject, why even give these flamers the chance to break the rules? It is much easier just to get rid of the topic altogether.

  • 09.18.2006 5:58 PM PDT
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Posted by: roman arrow12
Once again, I understand that this is a good idea. In writing. Most people don't care about being banned, you see all of those threads people make, just to get banned. Because MLG is such a sensititve subject, why even give these flamers the chance to break the rules? It is much easier just to get rid of the topic altogether.
Banning the topic of MLG all together would REALLY piss people off.

  • 09.18.2006 6:00 PM PDT

Ach! Was ist los?

For the record, KSI Seven, I did read the entire topic before I posted. I just went back and read it all again so that I'd be sure not to miss anything.

My view has not changed. You are beating a dead horse and the stink is harming the rest of us. MLG? Anti-MLG? I don't care either way. I don't care about your constant sore-looser harping and whining about the supposed bias on our part, either.

There is much more I could say, but I won't because Achronos and Shishka have done a good job of covering it all between them and it'll all be here as a part of the record. This has gone on long enough, and I'm going to do something about it. If Achronos really wants to undo the lock and let it go on, I won't question him however much it makes my eyes bleed.

Enjoy your vacation.

  • 09.18.2006 6:02 PM PDT

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I've actually been following this forum since it started. I just haven't really felt like posting or had the time. I decided to read what everyone else had to say, and then base my questions and opinions on what i read. It is honestly a mere coincidecnce that i have been posting after Shishka. Kind of like the coincidence that you name for MLG kinda sounds like Chugsta...

  • 09.18.2006 6:02 PM PDT

(10:19:49 PM) Scruss: oh and pezza, i saw what you did to that cat
(10:20:17 PM) Pezza: You were the one with the video camera breathing heavily. Of course you saw.

Posted by: KSI SEVEN 7
I know that in louisiana you can only have your IP changed by calling your ISP(if your on highspeed) anything else renews your previous IP. The IP changes once every few months for me automaticly. The last change was in febuary i believe.

P.S. notice how that kid follows shiska and posts an "agreed" post after each shiska post?


Your getting off topic, I would like to discuss your sig. You have no idea how many people with MLG in their gamertag or MLG in their Clan name have cheated me. I am not talking about at a level 35 im talking about at a level 30. The point of the matter is, most people that claim to be MLG may not infact be a Major League gamer. Consider the fact that I coud, right now, go and register an account on their website despite actually going to MLG events. That number of people that you mentioned actually that are part of the MLG community is skewed.

  • 09.18.2006 6:03 PM PDT
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Who see the world’s great anguish and its wrong / And dare not speak.

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I'm not exactly sure where IP banning came into this, but I'm fairly certain that B.net doesn't use IP bans. I'm not sure if someone said they did or not. This whole thread has me slightly... perplexed.

As for all the other points, I think that's been taken care of, so I'll stay out of it.

  • 09.18.2006 6:04 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
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"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

1. How do you figure? You haven't seen said info. You have no idea how the data is stored, nor how one might query it. You only have what is on bungie.net to go on, and that is only a small portion of the data. You're right in that such an analysis is complicated, but that is precisely why we speak in generalities here. Unless you actually know the math and the statistics, you're simply talking out of your ass.

2. What, exactly, are you referring to here? I think we're pretty hardcore about rules here. Not many boards can ban you because you violated the "play nice" rule. Why do you think they aren't enforced? What is your evidence? Do you not see people banned? If so, why aren't you reporting them to the mods like the rest of the users? It is easy to criticize, what have you done to help?

3. RHC became the way it is because that's the community feedback it got. Of course, it would have helped if those people had actually played the game. I'm not surprised, it wasn't that fun. Team Hardcore seems to be doing well, that's encouraging. I don't like playlists to fail.

Posted by: KSI SEVEN 7
WOW, I said that you dont have accurate info, and you dont. Do your search variations account for slight MLG variations? Did you add games with 5 second respawns, and 8 second respawns together? What about human weapons, and no duals?
Do you base it on names? BC i have a MLG TS setting called "Chig carries midget" Thus either way your results would be inaccurate.

The rules are never followed, they shoudve been ENFORCED.

If you had a good idea of how many people would play each thing, why make RHC 30 mins and 50 kills? there you go. And if you post somthing that i didnt read from 1 post before mine, consider that right now im on dialup and that dialup+long post=im responding to the post 4 earlier

  • 09.18.2006 6:05 PM PDT