Bungie.net Community
This topic has moved here: Subject: Honest Criticism
  • Subject: Honest Criticism
Subject: Honest Criticism
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Posted by: JumpNinja
Beyond this, Bungie.net suffers from a strange irony. The company wishes to receive input about their games and what should happen next, but the actual likelihood of putting a good idea out amidst the THOUSANDS of other people that have their own opinions is very difficult amidst an old forum template that is already difficult to navigate through with the pages being a large blur of thousands of random posters and generic cluttered misspelled text. Now, I can clearly see that you guys want to update, upgrade and grow- But it will not change the sheer number of posts to wade through when discussing such topics as the future of Halo three.


I agree with that observation and I feel your despair.

That said, I always end up thinking 'what the hell can the peeps at Bungie do about this?'

Currently I'm heavily involved in another game developer's forum. Let me tell you, the difference is stunning. I go there every single day and write essays! The forums are moderated fairly and professionally by both a third-party Mod and the devs themselves! There is never, not ever, a case whereby a Moderator feels it is there place to indulge in sarcasm or patronising put-downs. There is hardly ever a case where a thread gets out of hand. In fact, as long as people are on topic, a thread will likely turn into a pretty civil 'argument' and then the issue will sort of naturally worm it's way towards a conclusion on its own. The forums are an absolute credit to that particular company and it's a sincere joy to participate in them.

Despite occasional misunderstandings, there is also a great sense of humour (yes, even for English people...although I do still get misunderstood here and there) and the ability to poke fun and generally have a laugh at the expense of the devs is commonplace.

Do I think Bungie are different then? Not at all. You can't make games like Bungie do without being cool.... it's simply not gonna happen. Of course Bungie have a fantastic sense of humour and of course Bungie want to hear from their fans.

That said, I think you have hit the nail on the head, so to speak. The issue here revolves around numbers and age. Here's where I'm going to be honest.

Bungie.net is made up of weary, jaded intellects that are absolutely sick and tired of wading through the nonsensical jibbering of thousands of morons. That's right, morons.

There, I said it. I'm not proud I said it, but it's simply the truth.

Take BLANK The Moderator. BLANK The Moderator is, I'm sure, a really nice guy. Now, after hanging around here for some time I started to witness BLANK'S renowned and infamous 'banning' and 'locking' habits firsthand. I also took note of some of the comments he made. Wrongly, I let some of those comments offend me.... I even got personally insulted once (indirectly....it was by reading what he'd said to somebody else) and left to spit venom on some other forums in the hope I would get a verbal cuddle. I did get a cuddle, but then I regretted my lack of empathy for Bungie.

It's only after spending enough time on these forums that one begins to comprehend what motivates BLANK'S celebrated ruthlessness.

PAIN AND DESPAIR

Yes, pain and despair and a keen intolerance for blatant stupidity. That said, I still hate him (joke)

Anyway, there are some of my views. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm even out of hand spelling them out in this way. I just feel that the point you've made about the forums being crippled and slowly killed by the influx of thousands of screaming children is a truth one has to acknowledge.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As regards cheating... Halo 2 definately has a major problem. That said, I'm 100% aware that Bungie are working hard to do the best they can for Halo 3. They've also done the best they can for Halo 2 ... it's just beyond them now (in the light of a new Halo coming out soon)

The problem regarding the Bungie.net forums I acknowledge and agree with. Maybe this should've been in The Septagon though :P

[Edited on 9/22/2006]

  • 09.22.2006 1:32 AM PDT

Facts are the enemy of tru7h....

The problem, with both your major complaints, is that they're not directly Bungie's fault.

The forums are sometimes a mess because of people... People with no regard or consideration for others who see the anonymity of the internet as an excuse to be crappy to each other.... Which is also the primary reason for cheating....Sure, there are glitches and bugs in the game that facilitate people who want to cheat... But no-one is forcing them to do so.... People sometimes come on the forum and moan about cheating like it's bungies fault... like Bungie goes round to their house, holds a shot gun to their head and says, "Cheat! Cheat Damn you or i'll blow your head off..... and your little dog too..." to the best of my knowledge, this is not the case....

There is a system in place for reporting cheating but people simply don't use it.... they just moan on the forums that they where cheated on... Bungie can't ban people if they don't know about it.....They can't police the games and the forum 24/7... it's just not possible...

...Then there is the nature of the actual offence... Some are the domain of Xbox live and some are Bungies domain.... If it's cheating directly related to Halo 2 then Bungie are the crowd to contact... if it's general abusive behaviour it's Xbox Live's territory.... So people should report to the relevant authority... but, instead, people come on the forums and complain.....

There seems to be this myth that cheating doesn't happen in other games or that it's not a problem in other games and it's bungies fault for designing a system that encouraged cheating.... But in any environment, if someone sees a way that they can get a heads up on the competition they'll take it... Sadly that seems to be human nature... And it sucks... It sucks that people suck so much.... but they do.....

...Not Bungies fault...

Theres only so much you can patch a game once it's out... there's only so many resources and time you can spend on it.... there comes a point when you have to let go learn from your mistakes and move on....

Hopefully the cheating issues will have been resolved by Halo 3... They can take the mistakes of halo 2, which we all can admit there were (i think bungie themselves would admit that), and use that knowledge to implement a system where cheating isn't so prevalent.... but it won't disappear.... no system is full proof... not even the fabled Central-Server system....and people will find a way around it, through it, under it....

...what to take away from this rant.... people suck... fact of life...

-Stu

  • 09.22.2006 1:36 AM PDT

One among millions; just the nearest visible right now.

Please, wait for a moderator or admin to post. It's blatantly obvious that this is likely to be closed- but the more people post, the more it begins to look like a mob gathering.
I'm glad you guys made posts that weren't aggressive or meaningless, but wait for an admin- If one posts and doesn't close the topic, then you know that it's an acceptable discussion.

I only posted because I have never seen a post where Bungie has acknowledged a complaint like this. At this point in time, that's all I want- for them to actually acknowledge that Halo2 has a major problem.

In regards to the comment that there's a cheater reporting system, I agree- and it doesn't work.

[Edited on 9/22/2006]

  • 09.22.2006 1:40 AM PDT

Ach! Was ist los?

Number one, this isn't a Halo forum. Moved.

Number two, we've heard this time and time again. Bungie is not merely sitting around and twiddling their thumbs, despite the way H2 on XBL looks right now.

You want to know why so many issues haven't been fixed? Try taking a look at just how hard it is to make major revisions on a platform as inflexible as the XBox.

[Edited on 9/22/2006]

  • 09.22.2006 5:05 AM PDT
Subject: Honest Criticism

One among millions; just the nearest visible right now.

This isn't just specifically Halo related, and it IS relevant to Bungie, so I'm posting it here.
I am going to try to be as civil as possible- In all honesty I am beyond upset with today's circumstances with Halo2 and this forum, and I want you to see a view that is not just mine- but rather shared by many of the competent fans that still follow you loyally.

Today, Halo2 is not the experience that we were advertised it would be. It is not a massive multiplayer experience free of cheating and hateful offenses, and it is not a place that the common videogame player can play and become part of the Halo universe.
Today, I describe Halo2 as 'an acquired taste' -one that is becoming more and more difficult to swallow. The host system is spawn of a million issues that we never, I reiterate never should have been exposed to, and further complications such as in-game glitches and the inability to actually be held responsible for bannable offenses is making Halo2 an experience of habit, and not entertainment.

Halo3 offers bright hopes for the future- the possibility of servers, better Xbox Live coordination and upgraded and more streamlined gameplay appeals to everyone.
However there are two glaring issues that I would call to your attention.

One: Halo two is backwards compatible for Xbox 360. A game that has been available for play for TWO YEARS without any acceptable resolution to the plague that is modders, bridgers, standby-users, glitchers, and people that break the terms of condition in general.

At this thought, I would like to point out that Bungie diverts responsibility for cheaters and rule-breakers to Xbox Live, and Xbox Live diverts the responsibility to Bungie. No true solution is found, and the problems go unsolved. The end to this point is that for TWO YEARS Halo2 has been an immature game of "let's pretend" that the game is fine and that things are still fun. Now here's the quicken- After two years of this treatment, what about people that still want to play Halo2 on Xbox Live after Halo3? Is this game suddenly going to become "Not Xbox Live Compatible" at the release of Halo3 and we can only play it online, or will we still have to play under the same conditions as today- with three years of "let's pretend" under our belts instead of two?

Glaring issue number Two:
Bungie Studious is one of the friendliest and most community-driven game companies to ever exist, and so they graciously created the Bungie.net forums for people to make suggestions and comment on their favorite games. The problem? Well, first of all let's hope that you don't offer criticism- that just isn't looked highly upon. Now, I can understand this because when one person makes an actual criticism that makes sense, then 100,000 people just jump in behind them with their own personalized innuendo- but in the case of Halo2's useless host system and failure to ban players, MOST PEOPLE ARE ON THE SAME PAGE.

Beyond this, Bungie.net suffers from a strange irony. The company wishes to receive input about their games and what should happen next, but the actual likelihood of putting a good idea out amidst the THOUSANDS of other people that have their own opinions is very difficult amidst an old forum template that is already difficult to navigate through with the pages being a large blur of thousands of random posters and generic cluttered misspelled text. Now, I can clearly see that you guys want to update, upgrade and grow- But it will not change the sheer number of posts to wade through when discussing such topics as the future of Halo three.

Now, I realize that you guys deserve praise and not so much criticism, but the current status of Halo2 and in some regards, the difficult nature of the current Bungie.net forum is aggravating to experience- and is something you guys should see through the eyes of people that view you as being immaculate. This post is meant to be a direct-fire reminder of what you have accomplished versus the failures that you have seen alongside them.
Lock the post, delete it, ban me, be angry, hide from it, deny it, whatever-
But make sure you read the damn thing, because it's the truth.

Please remember the past to grow from its mistakes.
Please make us proud. Not just in the future, but also now.
He that gives swiftly gives twice.

Peace, and thank you for all the good work.

Forum members-
Please honor the honest attempt to give criticism without aggression- If you are not a moderator or admin, then do not post until one does.

[Edited on 9/22/2006]

  • 09.22.2006 12:42 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Do you have what it takes to become a ninja? Join Ninja Academy
Prepared to learn the way of the jedi? Join
KOTOR

Posted by: BobBQ
Number one, this isn't a Halo forum. Moved.

Number two, we've heard this time and time again. Bungie is not merely sitting around and twiddling their thumbs, despite the way H2 on XBL looks right now.

You want to know why so many issues haven't been fixed? Try taking a look at just how hard it is to make major revisions on a platform as inflexible as the XBox.


Good point. Computer game patches can be released quickly and easily. Many of the problems with Halo 2 and Bungie.net stem from:

1. immature players and posters
2. problems intrinsic with xbox live

The Bungie.net forums are a reflection of the posters more so than Bungie or the mods. We are the ones who create a healthy community.

  • 09.22.2006 5:27 AM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Posted by: Chomskyite
Take BLANK. BLANK is, I'm sure, a really nice guy. Now, after hanging around here for some time I started to witness BLANK'S renowned and infamous 'banning' and 'locking' habits firsthand.

It's Shishka!! Do I get a chequebook and pen?

  • 09.22.2006 5:39 AM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

I have no comment. If you wish to pursue the matter please get your lawyer to contact my lawyer.

I can add that those I fear can strike at any place, at any time, and have been doing since at least the early 1980s

  • 09.22.2006 6:27 AM PDT

One among millions; just the nearest visible right now.

I'm suprised that this was moved, and not locked. I have been harsh, and I apologize for the fact that complaints are always made without seeing Bungie's side of the fence- I know what you're saying Bob, hardware can be software's worst enemy. I'm just emotional about the situation because we've been dealing with it so long, and Halo3 is hard to wait for with the hope that we won't see the same issues.

That's not to say that I can't wait for Halo3. I see very clearly that time is Bungie's friend, and the more time spent the better Halo3 will be. My greatest purpose for writing this is just simply to give Bungie a full view of how tiring and ultimately boring Halo2 is under the host system and the annoying exploits of it.
Put simply, it is as I said: A wish for the future with a cold reminder of the past.
I hope that the future brings many wonderful experiences, but in the meantime, I'd like to thank Bungie in advance for all the hard work, and also putting up with the endless complaints. Thank you all, and may all the days spent working these great games for jerks like me be happy and fun memories. Keep up the good work.

  • 09.22.2006 9:57 AM PDT

Strange evolution how people have come to believe
That we are it's greatest achievement
We're barely, we're just a collection of cells
Overrating themselves

The complaint threads that are locked aren't locked because they are critical of Bungie, they are usually locked dut to the topic already being addressed, or the poster is just spamming.

Your complaints are nothing new, and have been covered in thousands of previous posts. Bungie and/or XboxLive cannot be held responsible for the behavior of anyone online.

As for glitching, cheating, etc, Bungie has addressed every issue that can be fixed. They have even impemented thier own auto-feedback system to detect cheaters. I cant think of another developer that has gone through the pains that Bungie has to bring you the most enjoyable experience possible.

In my opinion, your expectations were set far too high for a game. Granted the game isn't perfect, but it is what it is, a game.

This isn't a Bungie issue, its a societal issue. Every where you go in your life, you will come across criminals, cheaters, thieves, and people trying to get ahead without doing the work required to get there. That doesn't change when you log on to Bungie.net. They have no magic shield from the idiots of the world. The sooner you realize that, the better off you'll be. IMHO.

  • 09.22.2006 12:09 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Bungie is doing as much as they can to help the cheater problem and they have acknowledged it. Pretty much, the bottom line is if you don't like it don't play it. No one's forcing you to pay $50 a year for Xbox Live, it's your choice. You should also remember that it's only a game. I get cheated every so often (about maybe 5 times in TWO YEARS), if you lose a game, who cares. The point of playing a game is to have fun, if you get cheated just move on, it's not a big deal.

And calling most of the population on Bungie.net morons was more than a little extreme. Most people act nicely and are respectful, but the few "morons" that post simply stand out amongst everyone else.

  • 09.22.2006 12:24 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Posted by: jessHAZ
And calling most of the population on Bungie.net morons was more than a little extreme. Most people act nicely and are respectful, but the few "morons" that post simply stand out amongst everyone else.


No, not really.

I actually called the majority morons.

Of course, that's only a description of their behavior online. As has been pointed out, many Bungie.net morons would probably not act so moronic if they were encountered face to face.

The fact is, Bungie.net seems to attract both the naturally occuring morons and the pseudo-online variety. I suppose in that case a more accurate description of my view would be that Bungie.net is densely populated with the pseudo-moron and also contains a colourful sample of true morons.

Either way, there are more morons than you can shake a stick at.


[Edited on 9/22/2006]

  • 09.22.2006 1:24 PM PDT

One among millions; just the nearest visible right now.

Posted by: jessHAZ

And calling most of the population on Bungie.net morons was more than a little extreme. Most people act nicely and are respectful, but the few "morons" that post simply stand out amongst everyone else.


I never called people here morons. I used the words 'competent' and 'loyal'. That didn't make any kind direct reference to any other type of person. I believe that this forum has great people- certainly you must be, as you have the patience and care to be a member here and support Bungie continually, whereas I prefer the forums of my favorite clan. In that regard, I must say that I already see good personalities here. Most of you have held an intelligent discussion without any argument or negative remarks, and truthfully this is one of the first times I can say that for any thread I've made here under any alias. (I've had a lot, and I usually don't post.) That says a lot to me about the growth of this community.

Posted by: twinkiemaker

This isn't a Bungie issue, its a societal issue. Every where you go in your life, you will come across criminals, cheaters, thieves, and people trying to get ahead without doing the work required to get there. That doesn't change when you log on to Bungie.net. They have no magic shield from the idiots of the world. The sooner you realize that, the better off you'll be. IMHO.


I know this. Being bored with Halo and being upset about it doesn't mean that the world is ending and that the sky is falling. It just means I have a choice: Leave, or stay.
Many of my good friends have long since left Halo, but I still play. Heck, I don't even have Xbox Live right now, but I'm scurrying frantically to get it back DESPITE how few people I know that still play Halo.

On the statement that these problems are a societal issue, I agree, yes- But there is also a balance in the real world. When someone chooses to commit to 'getting ahead' at someone else's expense, it's usually illegal and lands them in trouble. There is often a reaction to anything done like this, otherwise we wouldn't have such a thing as prisons.

Now the comparison to real life IS extreme, because the digital realm will most likely never allow us control over other people, but Halo 2 Live is advertised as a controllable experience nonetheless. This is the reason that anyone has the right to complain- Xbox Live and Halo 2 were first invisioned as being a great entertainment venue where we can avoid issues like these and now it's not- But most people are still paying for twelve month accounts to play the most popular Xbox Live game: Halo 2.

I realize that a large portion of the trouble with Xbox Live extends from the creation of the ever-so-hated Two Month Free cards- and that is not Bungie's creation, nor responsibility.
However, Microsoft should not have just stopped producing those- They should STOP ACCEPTING THEM for regular Xbox OR 360. If ONE of us has to pay to play, then we ALL should. I realise that this complaint is not relevant to Bungie, but being how it is related to Halo2 gameplay, does anyone here have the location of the guy I should rant at regarding this?

  • 09.22.2006 2:11 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Posted by: JumpNinja
I never called people here morons.


For the record, he's telling the truth.

It was I who called people morons. I confess officer.

  • 09.22.2006 2:15 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

The dedicated servers are an impossibility, my friend. Halo 2's data goes well up into the terabytes. I doubt even Microsoft can stomach the cost it would take to implement that system and maintain it. Servers break too. In contrast, there'd be little pay-off from implementing that system. Someone made a thread a while back about this. While it would stop some forms of cheating, people would still cheat using other methods. There's no clear-cut solution for cheating. They'll just have to go with old-fashioned patches or come up with an idea that'll blow our minds away entirely. Also, lag still comes with dedicated servers, no matter what people say. There's no guarantee that you'll get one near your area.

  • 09.22.2006 4:04 PM PDT

One among millions; just the nearest visible right now.

I am unaware of the difficulty it must be to deal with servers, the cost, and anything of that nature- but then again, videogame designers do not care that we know what is required, how difficult it is, or how much it costs. They just use them or do not use them.

All I know is that I've played games like Chromehounds, Call of Duty, and Battlefield 2 for Xbox 360- which are said to be using servers to some degree- and the gameplay is effecient, mostly lag-free, and devoid of modding and standbying. Maybe they are using servers, maybe they aren't- how would we know? Game companies do not wish us to know what is involved and what isn't. Beyond this observation, the point remains- These games have done something successfully. We can play these without fear of something flying that shouldn't be.

That doesn't mean that their methods are concrete and perfect though.
The fact remains that if it is at all possible to use servers, then it should be done.

Edit: I went and found this post you're referring to, Hellslayer. http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=8455638
Honestly I've never read it before, but it does not provide acceptable assurance that things couldn't be better with a server. It's kind of a 'take it from me, man' kind of arguement. You've made a point, but we can't see the proof. Here, let me put it this way: innovation is not a sin. Maybe servers aren't the best course- but that doesn't change the fact that things are defunct with the current host system. Consider me revolutionary, but I like to think that all people should be equal in any realm of this world, real or digital.

[Edited on 9/22/2006]

  • 09.22.2006 4:21 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Exalted Legendary Member

Posted by: Hysterical Joker / The Jester
For the record, i'd piss my self silly if there was an Armatik action figure.

"Lazy -zapp!-, what the hell are you doing playing with me? Get to work lazy ass."


http://www.GamesInAction.com

Even though Master Ninja was quite forthcoming with it, I agree. We've heard this complaints over and over again, it's sickening. And it's even worse for people like Shiska who've been here forever and get hardened beyond hope because of the sheer mass and volume of dumb people that never shutup, or people that just complain, complain, and complain even more.

Even though this may have been your first post 'complaining', I've seen so many of these threads that practically say, 'Bungie, answer me and I'll get off your asses.' Well it can't work that way, they can't answer every person's thread, and when they address it globally to everyone, you lot claim that they don't acknowledge or don't realize it. They do. They aren't idiots, they have sense and brains.

  • 09.22.2006 6:59 PM PDT

One among millions; just the nearest visible right now.

These will be my last statements on the issue:
Einstein once wrote something to the effect of "true insanity is repeating the same process continually expecting a different outcome each time." This is my first time making a dedicated statement about the problem, but I spend every game with the Halo2 host system hoping that something will change eventually. It is insanity- but the most insane statement any human being could make is that it works, or should be implemented again.

The greater point here is that any steps necessary to alleviate the problem should be taken for Halo3, and that we should not see these failures on the 360. From a comment I made to my friends, "If Halo3 suffers the same problems as Halo2, then I doubt I will be a Halo player anymore."
...The sad thing is that most of us can look at our friends list and see that most of our friends are already gone- they gave up on Halo long ago.

I now realise that saying 'Bungie needs to acknowledge the problem' is extreme- they can't just reconfigure Halo2 to remove all the morons. (the cheaters) -Now I've called someone morons. Admittedly, Bungie doesn't have to acknowledge anything to us, its consumers, but it is still something that happened and should never happen again. Maybe I take things too seriously, but then I remember how serious a thing it is to deal with tens of thousands of people per day... and how the majority of us do not wish to be anything but equal.

Posted by: Master Ninja
Why can't you just play and quit crying?

With the end of maturity in this thread also comes the end of my interest in it.
Thanks to those that made constructive discussion- It's a nice change. And a first for me in this forum.
Luck to Bungie for the future- may you utilize the information that your greatest fans may also be your greatest critics.

  • 09.22.2006 8:56 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Posted by: Sacred Icon
There really was no point to this.


Well, the creator wanted to express his opinions. That's a valid point right?

  • 09.23.2006 2:48 AM PDT