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  • Subject: Losing faith in bungie
Subject: Losing faith in bungie

Posted by: Synthmilk
But the fact that I have not been a member of this community as long as some doesn't mean I can't see what is happening, it is just sad that so many of the older member's here see Bungie's sucess, or perceved wrongdoings, as reasons to lose faith, when we have seen nothing but great things come from them.

Worries are one thing, outright declaring that Bungie has lost their way is another.


I totally agree with that last statement and was hoping to stay out of this thread for as long as possible. However, I read that second to last line and it made me remember a time when I was just like you. Before the release of Halo 2, we had a huge number of people here, clamoring, complaining, and hyped to the max. Some people were worried by the videos released so far. I was one of the few who expressed complete faith in Bungie. Halo 1 showed that Bungie could make a great game with all the polish. If you had asked me then if Bungie would put boss battles in Halo 2, I would have said there was no chance at all. At that time, I thought Bungie was incapable of making silly mistakes. The first auto-update showed how wrong I was. Tartarus made me realize that blind faith isn't going to get us anyway.

We have seen things that are not great from Bungie. Bungie is a very different company from when it first released Halo. Many of those original employees are long gone. I don't want people to doubt Bungie, but I don't want to see any blind followers either.

  • 10.03.2006 2:05 PM PDT

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Bungie is not God, they make mistakes, and perhaps the "boss" battle with Tartarus wasn't the best thing in the game, but then again, the campaigne wasn't the real point of Halo 2, now was it? Halo 2 was about the multiplayer, and I certainly didn't expect the campaigne to be as good as it was considering it was still on the xbox (hardware limitations have a profound impact on every aspect of a campaigns execution).

Besides, what's one true boss battle? At least they made it plausable as to why it was so hard to kill him. I am anything but a blind follower, I see the differences between Halo 1 and Halo 2, it was Halo 1 that introduced me to Bungie in the firstplace. But if your going to lose faith in bungie for a boss battle? I wouldn't really call that a boss battle any more than some of the enemies in Marathon. I will reserve final judement on Bungie for until I see Halo 3, and if it isn't awsome, well then I guess Bungie really did lose their way somewhere.

  • 10.03.2006 5:30 PM PDT

Aye, I'm saying I've lost the blind faith, but not faith that Halo 3 will be at least a good game.

Multiplayer had lots of problems that I feel should have been caught in Testing (melees and grenades) doing no damage before the AU). Just saying that they make mistakes and have given us reason to not believe everything they say. I think we're saying the same thing.

  • 10.03.2006 5:34 PM PDT

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Basically, but then again, have they actually said anything to misslead us? I have read every news release from Bungie and none stated that there would be no issues. I expect issues, there has been no game that I know of that had no issues before a patch.

So there was a couple bugs in multiplayer, did they not get fixed? I am studying computer programming, I know how hard it is to test for every possible issue, even ones that when they arise seem to be no brainers in terms of tests that should have been done to catch them.

Bungie has not lied to us, either directly or indirectly. This thing about late or limited information when we can get it elsewhere is dissapointing, especially for me as the website I co-run initially dedicated ourselves to keeping up to date on all Halo rumours and annoucements, with our motto being "Unless you see it on B.net, its Rumour!"

Well sadly that is not the case, with two interviews already that are indesputable. Is that necessarily Bungie's fault? No, as we know it is Microsoft's legal ninjas that are preventing Bungie from spewing, part of the compromise that has allowed them to make Halo as popular as it is now, but it still sucks.

Bungie has done more for their community than any other game creator, perhaps they have lowered the bar relative to where they were before, but it is still far higher than anyone elses.

  • 10.03.2006 6:00 PM PDT

I really hope none of the anti-Bungie kiddies see that post. There are lots of cases (which I'm not going to enumerate because I don't want to argue) of Bungie misleading the community both directly and indirectly.

Halo 2 was rushed. I accept that and wait willingly for Halo 3. However, I do think that you are simply too trusting. Take that as you will and lets go our seperate ways. And as for a game with no issues without patches, check out Halo 1 ;)

The reality is that Halo 2 was not the game I had hoped for, based on Halo 1, and I think it is folly to form solid expectations about any game in this ever-changing industry.

Cheers!

  • 10.03.2006 7:45 PM PDT
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Has Bungie betrayed its fans? Not all of them. Has Bungie betrayed its old school fans? Absolutely. Bungie betrayed them back when they announced Halo 3, and the announcement of two more Halo games is only adding insult to injury for them. But for the majority of its fans, Bungie has given them what they want. The majority of people want more Halo, and that's what they'll get. Will these be the last two Halo games ever made? Probably not. Halo makes too much money for no one to make another game, whether it be Bungie or another company contracted to work on it like Ensemble. Personally if Bungie made Halo games forever I would be happy.

I have to agree with EastBeast though, Bungie tells the truth the majority of the time, but has been known to mislead their fans and hold back the whole truth at times. With the release of Halo 3 pending, information is bound to be leaked, and Bungie will try to suppress the truth by whatever means necessary to protect their product, even if it means telling a lie or two. So is Bungie losing some of its support? Yes, but the majority of people are pleased with this move made by Bungie to commission two new Halo games to outside developers. However, should these games not meet expectations, the guys at Bungie will be the ones to blame, because they gave permission to work on these products in the first place.

  • 10.03.2006 10:27 PM PDT

I'll be on my own side.

Posted by: Gargantuan
I have to agree with EastBeast though, Bungie tells the truth the majority of the time, but has been known to mislead their fans and hold back the whole truth at times. With the release of Halo 3 pending, information is bound to be leaked, and Bungie will try to suppress the truth by whatever means necessary to protect their product, even if it means telling a lie or two. So is Bungie losing some of its support? Yes, but the majority of people are pleased with this move made by Bungie to commission two new Halo games to outside developers. However, should these games not meet expectations, the guys at Bungie will be the ones to blame, because they gave permission to work on these products in the first place.


Care to explain what you mean by "mislead their fans and hold back the whole truth at times"?

  • 10.04.2006 1:18 AM PDT
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Synthmilk has some really good views. ^_^

People should really just try and not worry about it all, Bungie is hard at work and busy. Sit back, relax, grab a soda, and enjoy the ride. (=

Only time can really tell with these things.

  • 10.04.2006 7:01 AM PDT

Ach! Was ist los?

I think that's good advice.

My only real gripe at this point is that all the new titles are for a platform I'll never own.

  • 10.04.2006 7:58 AM PDT
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Posted by: BobBQ
I think that's good advice.

My only real gripe at this point is that all the new titles are for a platform I'll never own.


How come? The 360 at first I thought was totally not worth it (still bought it anyways), but over the time I've had it since the day it came out I have changed my mind, price will go down by the time Halo 3 comes out I am sure, and there are just so many great features on the 360, and live is only $50 a year, I don't know about you but that ain't shabby at all.

  • 10.04.2006 8:12 AM PDT

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Posted by: Gargantuan
Has Bungie betrayed its fans? Not all of them. Has Bungie betrayed its old school fans? Absolutely. Bungie betrayed them back when they announced Halo 3, and the announcement of two more Halo games is only adding insult to injury for them.


How is Bungie insulting oldschool fans by making more games? Are you saying that when Bungie made Marathon 2 they also insulted the then oldschool gamers who had played Myth or Oni?

Bungie has done no such insult, they have their current game universe, and they want to share it, and thus far they have given us one awsome game, one awsome multiplayer experience (with a great but not awsome single player), and are going to be comming out with three more awsome games based in that universe, only one of which they will be making and as such they can move onto another project in good time.

Or do you mean it's insulting that instead of paying this kind of attention to, say Myth, and doing it for Halo, that they are insulting those players who wanted more Myth games? (good ones).

Maybe the Bungie guys got tired of Myth, think of that?

But for the majority of its fans, Bungie has given them what they want. The majority of people want more Halo, and that's what they'll get. Will these be the last two Halo games ever made? Probably not. Halo makes too much money for no one to make another game, whether it be Bungie or another company contracted to work on it like Ensemble. Personally if Bungie made Halo games forever I would be happy.

When has Bungie ever done anything for the money as first priority? If they wanted to do that, they could have kept making Marathon games and whiped Doom's arse by putting them on the PC. Or kept making Myth games. They didn't know Halo would be as big as it was, they didn't know Halo 2 would be as big as it was (when they started). In fact, they had been thinking about all they had left out of the Halo story with only doing Halo 1 and a bunch of them decided to wright up possible stories for a second Halo game, propose them, and that started the ball rolling on Halo 2/3. Halo wasn't that popular in terms of video game history, it just did well on the xBox, and did ok when it finally got ported to PC.

Still hasn't outdone Quake. Halo 2 was the groundbreaker in terms of popularity, and if it wasn't for Microsoft's massive marketing department, that wouldn't have happened either, or at least, not as fast.

I have to agree with EastBeast though, Bungie tells the truth the majority of the time, but has been known to mislead their fans and hold back the whole truth at times.

As the other man said, Evidence please. The only thing I have seen is missfollowing by people who make assumptions. They have never said that something would be in the game and then it ended up not being in the game, without telling us that it did not make the final cut. They never said that something would not be in the game, and then was in the game. They used the "no comment" derivatives a lot. That means any dissapointment is due to someone making a wrong assumption.

With the release of Halo 3 pending, information is bound to be leaked, and Bungie will try to suppress the truth by whatever means necessary to protect their product, even if it means telling a lie or two.

The first script for the Halo Movie was leaked, they didn't lie about it, they just simply ignored it, knowing that if they said anything, people would use it to say the script was real or not real, when the fact is, that script was scrapped a while ago, but not before the leak as far as we know, so at the time it was the real script, but now it is just garbage.

True they never talked of this, but is that lieing? Bungie isn't responsible for what people interpret or assume, and trying to make them responsible is just foolish.

So is Bungie losing some of its support? Yes, but the majority of people are pleased with this move made by Bungie to commission two new Halo games to outside developers. However, should these games not meet expectations, the guys at Bungie will be the ones to blame, because they gave permission to work on these products in the first place.

They will be the one's to blame for letting Halo into the wrong hands. Is this a problem? I expect them to take responsibility if any of these projects are not up to Bungie and Halo par. They admit responsibility for these projects by telling us how involved they are in their development to ensure continuity of story and tech.

Yep, Bungie has had a couple slips, but then again, is Bungie responsible for those people who abuse said slips to ruin the game for others? No, their not. In terms of graphical performance on the XBox for Halo 2, they pushed farther than they should have, but aside from the loading issues, is the game not fun? And is it Bungie's fault for overestimating what the generic XBox could handle, or the XBox's fault for not being good enough? Bungie's fault obviously, but meh, still looks better than most other xBox games.

  • 10.04.2006 8:49 AM PDT

"You're never gonna fight me, I'll wipe the world away"

Posted by: Synthmilk
Posted by: Gargantuan
Has Bungie betrayed its fans? Not all of them. Has Bungie betrayed its old school fans? Absolutely. Bungie betrayed them back when they announced Halo 3, and the announcement of two more Halo games is only adding insult to injury for them.


How is Bungie insulting oldschool fans by making more games? Are you saying that when Bungie made Marathon 2 they also insulted the then oldschool gamers who had played Myth or Oni?

Sorry to tell you this but Oni and Myth came out after Bungie was finished with the Marathon series.

  • 10.04.2006 10:50 AM PDT

I disagree with everyone. That's all I care to say.

[Edited on 10/4/2006]

  • 10.04.2006 4:05 PM PDT

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Posted by: psycho07
Posted by: Synthmilk
Posted by: Gargantuan
Has Bungie betrayed its fans? Not all of them. Has Bungie betrayed its old school fans? Absolutely. Bungie betrayed them back when they announced Halo 3, and the announcement of two more Halo games is only adding insult to injury for them.


How is Bungie insulting oldschool fans by making more games? Are you saying that when Bungie made Marathon 2 they also insulted the then oldschool gamers who had played Myth or Oni?

Sorry to tell you this but Oni and Myth came out after Bungie was finished with the Marathon series.


I believe that my left hand wrote that while my right hand was sleeping...silly me.

But my point still remains, but re-ordered: Did Myth fans feel betrayed when Bungie made Oni? For the Playstation no less?

Perhaps the betrayal was when they sold Myth and Oni to Take2, but then again, perhaps that was mearly a mistake, albite a big one.

My point is and was that Bungie has never purposefully lied or betrayed their fanbase, all they have done is purposefully made changes to the game (or made an entirely new game) that they believed would make it (the game, be it a new instalment or a new game entirely) more fun for a wider audience. Which they did.

[Edited on 10/4/2006]

  • 10.04.2006 6:54 PM PDT

Posted by: Shadowstep889
It has the word "Halo" in its title. That means an automatic campaign playthrough for me.

Sometimes, developers just have to move on to better systems, BobBQ...

  • 10.04.2006 7:59 PM PDT
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I think that is the problem. Microsoft would never allow their biggest money-maker to start producing for another system. The kind of money they could, and would, offer would be impossible to refuse, especially if the liscence has been made less legitimate by games like "Halo Wars". I too am concerned that, at a point, the intellectual property will become tainted by the massive influx of new, sub-par material.

  • 10.05.2006 6:42 AM PDT

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Other than this "Halo Portal" thing, what "massive influx of new, sub-par material" are you refering to?


I can understand why Bungie chose Microsoft, it was likely the best business decision they could make, they are a small company with next to zero marketing budget. In exchange for the massive marketing that is a requirement of sucess on a massive scale, they partnered with Microsoft, and in exchange their games are now first and formost made for the xBox and XBox 360, which is a smart choice from their perspective due to the fact they are building for a set list of features and abilities in terms of hardware, something that is the bane of PC programmers due to all the compatibility coding the developer must build into their games, and as every PC gamer knows, no game plays the same on every different computer setup that meets the "minimum" or even "reccomended" requirements for that game.


Bungie can now make the awsome games they want, guarinteed to be released on a Console, and not have to worry about the finer points of the marketing aspect. They make sure things happen as they want them to happen as much as possible, but compromise is key when your small and everyone else is big.


I have not seen Bungie compromise in overall gaming quality, perhaps certain specific aspects of Halo 2 were not great (like the graphics glitching) but other than that, what was truely wrong that is not subject to personal oppinion? The campaign too short? That's not a problem, thats how they wanted it to be. So called "boss fights"? The first time you encountered a Hunter in Halo, and you didn't know about the orange weak spot in their back, did it not take you a while to kill them, and did they not take a rediculous amout of hits? The fight with Tartarus, how did he act any differently in terms of taking hits than a Hunter, save that he didn't have such a weak spot. Or how did he act compaired to your marine buddies for that matter, save that he could take more hits? In Halo 1 Marines could take about three (or more) plasma hits before dying, and people are complaining that it takes multiple sniper hits to the head to kill Tartarus? The game isn't realistic, never was, and the so called "boss fights" were no such thing, maybe they could take a little more than feels right, but big deal, if your going to let something as small and, frankly, insignificant as you feeling the fight took too long or sumsuch, turn your oppinion against Bungie as a whole, then it is you who has the problem, not Bungie. There are plenty areas on Marathon that I think sucked in terms of the battles, and not because they were hard. Does that mean I don't like the game as a whole, and will denounce Bungie as a crappy game maker? People are too quick to say a problem they see in a game is due to something else they see was wrong.

People see a problem in Halo 2 and cry it is because of Bungie bowing down to Microsoft and Bungie is selling out etc. What about the problems in Marathon, Oni or Myth? Was it because Bungie sold out? No, because they hadn't sided with Microsoft, but once Bungie sided with Microsoft then now every issue in Halo and Halo 2 is because Bungie has lost touch with it's roots or because Bungie isn't in control anymore and Microsoft is forcing them to cut corners or something similar.

If they made a mistake, it is because they are human, not because of Microsoft, or their partnership with Microsoft.

And they are certainly not making these two new games or the Halo Movie because of Microsoft or for the money either, so people can stop crying over how Bungie has "sold out" to Microsoft's wishes for more money via Halo stuff, because it's the fans who wanted this stuff, and Bungie is giving it too them, reserve judegment on these projects untill you have seen them, and just because it's not Bungie that's making them doesn't mean Bungie isn't keeping their eyes and hands on them to ensure they hold up to how great Halo and Halo 2 are.

[Edited on 10/5/2006]

  • 10.05.2006 10:43 AM PDT

Strange evolution how people have come to believe
That we are it's greatest achievement
We're barely, we're just a collection of cells
Overrating themselves

The longer this thread goes on, the more everyone in here starts to sound like the teacher from Peanuts.

Woh woh woh woh woh woh.

  • 10.05.2006 11:00 AM PDT
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My friend, you would not tell with ſuch high zeſt
To children ardent for ſome deſperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum eſt
Pro patria mori.

Posted by: Gargantuan
Has Bungie betrayed its fans? Not all of them. Has Bungie betrayed its old school fans? Absolutely. Bungie betrayed them back when they announced Halo 3, and the announcement of two more Halo games is only adding insult to injury for them.


I absolutely disagree with you. How is it a betrayal for them to finish the series they made? Let's not start some myth that Bungie didn't make sequels before their marathon run of Halo games now please. Let's not start thinking that in the infinity of existence there is no precedent of Bungie allowing others to contribute to their IP.

You know what I think? I think a lot of people are getting worked up over nothing.

[Edited on 10/5/2006]

  • 10.05.2006 12:36 PM PDT

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Posted by: Sir Fragula
Posted by: Gargantuan
Has Bungie betrayed its fans? Not all of them. Has Bungie betrayed its old school fans? Absolutely. Bungie betrayed them back when they announced Halo 3, and the announcement of two more Halo games is only adding insult to injury for them.


I absolutely disagree with you. How is it a betrayal for them to finish the series they made? Let's not start some myth that Bungie didn't make sequels before their marathon run of Halo games now please. Let's not start thinking that in the infinity of existence there is no precedent of Bungie allowing others to contribute to their IP.

You know what I think? I think a lot of people are getting worked up over nothing.


Nice play on words there. ;)

I agree, I too believe that many people are getting worked up over nothing.

  • 10.05.2006 12:57 PM PDT
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My only problem is how we have our 'community guy' who posts on HBO and minor fansites a lot more often that he does on the official forums.

  • 10.05.2006 12:57 PM PDT

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Posted by: Gendo
My only problem is how we have our 'community guy' who posts on HBO and minor fansites a lot more often that he does on the official forums.


Take a look at those other "minor" forums, they have a-lot more members that can hold intelligent discussions.

  • 10.05.2006 1:12 PM PDT
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Elmicker, how do you know that the movie will suck, or the "spin-offs" will suck. You haven't even played any of them so stfu.

  • 10.05.2006 1:32 PM PDT
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Posted by: Sir Fragula
Posted by: Gargantuan
Has Bungie betrayed its fans? Not all of them. Has Bungie betrayed its old school fans? Absolutely. Bungie betrayed them back when they announced Halo 3, and the announcement of two more Halo games is only adding insult to injury for them.


I absolutely disagree with you. How is it a betrayal for them to finish the series they made? Let's not start some myth that Bungie didn't make sequels before their marathon run of Halo games now please. Let's not start thinking that in the infinity of existence there is no precedent of Bungie allowing others to contribute to their IP.

You know what I think? I think a lot of people are getting worked up over nothing.


Thank you, I totally agree. People see a trailer and they already think they have a full review of the game!!! Why is everyone jumping the gun!? I see the ninjas join in on conversations all the time, why do people think they're MIA ?

  • 10.06.2006 9:31 AM PDT