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  • Subject: Losing faith in bungie
Subject: Losing faith in bungie
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Posted by: Achronos
Sigh. Please don't make stuff up.

Here's what really happened: "Crap, these guys are making a Halo RTS mod for C&C. They shouldn't really do that. Too bad, because it looks nice, but still, if we don't kill it, then we could possibly lose our ability to defend our IP against more serious abusers."

And don't say "Copyright infringement or not." You make it sound like the fact that they were infringing was not a big deal - it was the ONLY THING THAT MATTERED. If it didn't matter, we wouldn't have gone through the trouble.


Ughhh, I should have picked my words more carefully. The thing is, I find it funny, that of all the things that could have been shot down, it was the halogen mod, especially this close to the announcement of Halo wars.

I realize that you and Ms want to "protect" your IP's. But to me it really seemed that halogen was specifically targeted because of HW.
Of course, I'm an outsider, so I have no idea what is going within the Vaults of Bungie, Microsoft, Ensemble and even Slipstream. But I think that's the problem right there. There sometimes seems to be a (too much) lack of communication between the community and the "officials".

The community can't be told everything, for obvious reasons. But I do think there needs to be a better communication between all sides. It's hard for the community to do their "thing", if they don't what you guys want or are planning to do, yet I can understand that developers and such are having a difficult time to come things they expect the community to like, simply because it isn't always clear what the community wants.

Anyway, if it sounded like I was trying to bash anyone, that wasn't my intention (although I was trying to poke a bit), nor am I mad, simply a bit frustrated at times.

[Edited on 9/27/2006]

  • 09.27.2006 2:41 PM PDT
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I think this has shed a new light on the Bungie Community and opened people's eyes. There were and are some on these forums that will tell you that Halo is "in cahoots with Microsoft" or is "Microsoft's -blam!-" or whatever. And most people on these forums, especially fans of Bungie's old school games and most of the moderators would come in and tell them that they're full of crap. But now look what's happened. Aside from Toast, and Recon, even the mods that have posted in this thread all seem to be upset by these decisions made by Bungie. I think more people realize that the individuals who were saying that Bungie "money hungry" are more right than than the "old school" fans thought.

Thinking back to before Halo 3 was even announced, the announcements of two more Halo games I think should make people who didn't think that Halo 3 was the next project or argued against it feel even more stupid. Not only is Bungie making Halo 3, but they're supporting two more Halo games! Hopefully this will make some of the older fans see that Bungie isn't just about making great games anymore, it's also about making money, cause face it, Halo Wars and any game with Halo in the name will sell like mad. Sometimes the way things change is amazing.

  • 09.27.2006 2:42 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

That's by far the stupidest thing I've read today. Please acquire a grip on reality.

Microsoft is a large corporation, and lawyers were involved. Lawyers don't work fast. There are, for example, sites that sell modded Halo 2 files that we're still working on getting them shut down.

Posted by: Vitamin Zawaz
Heh, isn't it obvious why Microsoft waited for three years?

Think about it; if you IMMEDIATELY tell Halogen to not make a mod, then Halogen will IMMEDIATELY think of another Halo mod to make...Microsoft waited three years so they could drop the bomb during the project's finishing touches, to lower Halogen's morale just enough so that halogen would feel too shot down to even bother making another mod...

It's another of Microsoft's goddamn power trips...

  • 09.27.2006 2:43 PM PDT
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Of course it was specifically targeted; once HW went into production, HaloGEN crossed the line from IP-breaking mod that's selling merchandise with halo logos, to a game that could quite possibly remove sales from the new game, aswell as all the other crap. I don't think anyone's naive enough not to admit that, even if protection of the IP protection (so to speak) is quoted as the primary reason.

Posted by: just another fan
But to me it really seemed that halogen was specifically targeted because of HW.

  • 09.27.2006 2:44 PM PDT
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Halo wars, apart from the awful name, could be great. I love the trailer. I liked AoE 2.

Though im woried about peter jackson's new company getting their hands on halo, as quite frankly, 'Peter Jackson's Kong the Game of the movie" was pretty terrible.

  • 09.27.2006 2:45 PM PDT

I'll be on my own side.

Posted by: elmicker
Of course it was specifically targeted; once HW went into production, HaloGEN crossed the line from IP-breaking mod that's selling merchandise with halo logos, to a game that could quite possibly remove sales from the new game, aswell as all the other crap. I don't think anyone's naive enough not to admit that, even if protection of the IP protection (so to speak) is quoted as the primary reason.

Posted by: just another fan
But to me it really seemed that halogen was specifically targeted because of HW.


Come on, you think they would have lost sales? Don't you think that the people interested in HaloGEN would be the first ones in line to pick up HW? It's a real Halo RTS, instead of skins and models thrown into an old game.

[Edited on 9/27/2006]

  • 09.27.2006 2:49 PM PDT

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Posted By: Achronos
Lawyers don't work fast


Haha, QFT.

I think some of you are going out of line saying Slipstream is really angry about this. They're really not. They understand, for the most part, and they've accepted it. They already have other projects lined up. They're not up in arms over it, and they're taking a much more mature route to this than many of you are.

Saying things like "Bungie's a sellout" or "Microsoft is a franchise milking farmer wtih way too much money for the intelligence level they have (as a whole)" is really immature, and really requires some of you to "acquire a grip on reality."

  • 09.27.2006 2:49 PM PDT

Trailer Park Boys ~ One of the best Canadian made comedies ever.

<laughs>

Microsoft already owns the computer world, and hence is expanding the boundries further

  • 09.27.2006 2:55 PM PDT

I'll be on my own side.

Achronos, answer me this. Don't you think that HaloGEN would have spurred sales of HW? Consider this. A C&C fan plays HaloGEN, but he hasn't played Halo. He hears about HW, and would probably think, "Hmm...HaloGEN was pretty kickass, and this is actually a full fledged game. I'll check it out!"

Does that not sound reasonable?

(It was recently brought to my attention that Slipstream was selling stuff with the H-GEN logo, so I understand why they were shut down, but don't you think simply shutting down their sales would have been a more logical approach?)

  • 09.27.2006 3:00 PM PDT
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As far as Bungie move, as to Bungie spending more energy on Halo, I think this is the best solution. I want Bungie to work on other things, but I also want to continue with the Halo universe. So having them pass the grunt work to other talented people, as opposed to just selling Halo off or dropping it entirely, is the best of both worlds.

As to all of these "extra" projects happening at the same time, that sounds a bit like just timing. The timing for the Halo movie made sense (for it to come out within a year of the final game in the trilogy. Getting Jackson on board was briliant, as Weta's dedication to detail and world recreation fits with the background work Bungie has done on the Halo universe. Then it turns out that Jackson wants to see were film storytelling and videogame technology collide. It (as Jackson said) makes sense that they would try it with the Halo universe first as his team is hip deep in it. It he's sitting over in N.Z, flipping throuugh the Halo Bible, all sort of ideas are ocurring to him. Were people upset at the idea of the graphic novel? No. Think of this as the same.

HaloWars was clearly something Bungie wasn't actively looking at. Ensemble cearly want to see how to do an RTS on a console. Age of Empire (et al) already established control schemes, etc.. So I can see how they may have looked enviously at the Halo universe for a setting (if you aren't doing historical and you don't want to go into fantasy w/ BFME out there, sci-fi makes sense). So they tried some ideas and BOING, Bungie liked them.

To me it all makes sense financially, for work load, for creative reasons, for branding.

  • 09.27.2006 3:00 PM PDT
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Someone should have a big ol' fanfest or something, like in the old days. That came to mind while I thought about the community, a chance to get together and meet people. But I think those days are long gone. Oh well.

  • 09.27.2006 3:04 PM PDT

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I agree with shutting down the merchandising, just let's make that clear. The mod itself should have been fine though. Oh I dunno what to think at the moment about the whole thing, I'm going to dwell on what I've heard here.

  • 09.27.2006 3:05 PM PDT
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Actually, "Peter Jackson's King Kong: The Official Game of the Movie" (lol) was pretty well-received.

As for the rest of this thread... oof. :\

Would I have reacted any differently to this news five months ago, before crossing the line? I don't know. I'd definitely be concerned. It's easy to see why you would be. I just have complete confidence, now that I'm here, that Bungie will always be creating great games, no matter what's going on outside of it.

  • 09.27.2006 3:08 PM PDT

I'll be on my own side.

Posted by: GameJunkieJim
I agree with shutting down the merchandising, just let's make that clear. The mod itself should have been fine though. Oh I dunno what to think at the moment about the whole thing, I'm going to dwell on what I've heard here.


That's my point exactly.

  • 09.27.2006 3:08 PM PDT
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This is pure speculation, but it sounds like Bungie knew Ensemble could make a better RTS to me. After all, if Bungie could do it why not make it themselves and keep the game, the money, all of it right at Bungie?

EDIT: In refrence to peope saying that the RTS will be bad because Bungie isn't making it :)

[Edited on 9/27/2006]

  • 09.27.2006 3:13 PM PDT

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Posted by: MrJames
This is pure speculation, but it sounds like Bungie knew Ensemble could make a better RTS to me. After all, if Bungie could do it why not make it themselves and keep the game, the money, all of it right at Bungie?

EDIT: In refrence to peope saying that the RTS will be bad because Bungie isn't making it :)


One word sonny boy:

Myth

  • 09.27.2006 3:14 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
That's by far the stupidest thing I've read today. Please acquire a grip on reality.

Microsoft is a large corporation, and lawyers were involved. Lawyers don't work fast. There are, for example, sites that sell modded Halo 2 files that we're still working on getting them shut down.

Posted by: Vitamin Zawaz
Heh, isn't it obvious why Microsoft waited for three years?

Think about it; if you IMMEDIATELY tell Halogen to not make a mod, then Halogen will IMMEDIATELY think of another Halo mod to make...Microsoft waited three years so they could drop the bomb during the project's finishing touches, to lower Halogen's morale just enough so that halogen would feel too shot down to even bother making another mod...

It's another of Microsoft's goddamn power trips...


I shouldn't be spoken to about "stupid things" when I'm not the one working with a MOVIE DIRECTOR on a halo game...because IMO, that's just as stupid, if not more stupid, than the paragraph that you quoted...

[Edited on 9/27/2006]

  • 09.27.2006 3:15 PM PDT
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Posted by: EAGLES5
Its entreprenurship.

AHEN

entrepreneurship

;)

My teacher made me learn it.


Posted by: Pointed Star
Halo Kart is next! Long live Halo!


i actually lol'd at that. =)

  • 09.27.2006 3:15 PM PDT
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I dunno how I personally feel about Halogen being shut down; I like community mods and the creativity they occasionally display. Some people have careers because their mods were extremely well-received. But copyright law and enforcement can be tricky...how do you preserve your own rights without really ticking off your fan base that (most likely unknowingly) is infringing on them? Halo is the bread-and-butter of Bungie Studios, and I can't fault them for wanting to protect that.

Am I of the opinion there is a connection between Halogen getting the axe and Halo Wars? No, not really. Honestly I think that if Microsoft wanted to shut down Halogen at a convenient time it would have been early, not so close to the announcement of a Halo-themed RTS. It does make much sense to me to put yourself in the position where you have to defend an action that fans will clearly tie your announcement to, you know?

But one positive point I thought I'd mention is that we've been let in on some details of new projects early, closer to the ground floor than normal. I think that's pretty cool, myself.

[Edited on 9/27/2006]

  • 09.27.2006 3:16 PM PDT

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Posted by: Pointed Star
Aside from Toast, and Recon, even the mods that have posted in this thread all seem to be upset by these decisions made by Bungie.
I think you're loosing touch with the fact that the Moderators are just members too.

I'm not upset by these announcements, just confused. I have to admit that when I first read the announcement on the front page I pulled a Ryu Hyabusa when I said
"..........."

I didn't know what to make about the news that a Halo RTS was being made by another company and that Peter Jackson, along with the new Wingnut Interactive, was making some mysterious Halo game. Since I don't play computer games I don't know anything about Ensemble and Age of Empires. I'm even more confused by what the Wingnut Interactive project is to garner the statement, "gameplay and storytelling quite unlike anything the games industry has ever seen before."

So, I'm just going to sit and wait till I have more information and play the game before passing judgement. I'm patient like that. :P

I'm with Elmicker and wish the Bungie crew posted more here. I lurk around HBO and see the team more often in those forums than their own. We want some love too.

P.S. I'm also confused by how the front page image next to the Bungie X06 announcement has changed 3 times. Craziness. ;)

  • 09.27.2006 3:17 PM PDT

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Posted by: impurity
I think he meant more along the lines of the fact they couldn't do it because of stretched resources. Not capability. So his point was good. If Bungie wasn't doing it and Microsoft could have just slapped the project on any knob developer, at least Bungie was able to talk them into picking one.

I like flamingo boy.


Sorry, it didn't read that way to me.

  • 09.27.2006 3:18 PM PDT
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Posted by: GameJunkieJim
Posted by: MrJames
This is pure speculation, but it sounds like Bungie knew Ensemble could make a better RTS to me. After all, if Bungie could do it why not make it themselves and keep the game, the money, all of it right at Bungie?

EDIT: In refrence to peope saying that the RTS will be bad because Bungie isn't making it :)


One word sonny boy:

Myth

...
Age of Empires 1, 2, and 3
Expansions for those. One each, except for 3 I think.
Age of Mythology
Rise of Rome

I know that Bungie made Myth, but I think Ensemble beats them in the RTS department :(

EDIT: And it's half and half. Half I meant that Ensemble can probably make a better RTS overall, and half of me meant that if Bungie wants to get this game done any time within the decade they'll need help. Who better then Ensemble? *The* RTS company?

[Edited on 9/27/2006]

  • 09.27.2006 3:19 PM PDT