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Subject: Lets not start a bureaucracy ...
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  • Exalted Legendary Member

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Prognatus Archos

Sometimes I just do not understand some of this community. I just saw four posts about moderators get locked simply because they involved the discussion of a group of people. These threads were positive, (even the moderators were participating.) and not caustic in anyway, yet they were locked why? Because they discussed Moderators, and thus were in violation of a rule regarding the discussion of people. I believe that in this case these rules were taken out of context.

The rules are created to prevent distasteful threads that falsely accuse, or attack individuals personally. Yes these rules need to be enforced, but there needs to be a bit of judgment on the part of the one who is doing the locking. It is the moderators job to interpret the rule, and see it the thread in question was in any violation. In this case, these threads were not discussing any individual. And second they were not harming anyone.

In a bureaucratic system instead of taking responsibility, and making a judgment, or decision they pull out the rule book, and look for some obscure rule to decide for them. These rules were not created to be inflexible, they were not created to be so rigid they were created to fit specific circumstances. Now if those four posts had been openly attacking a specific individual then I agree, they should be locked, but in this case they were not, in this case they were innocent questions. There is no moderator info page, and there is little discussion pertaining to the topic. People tend to want to know more about who they are, and what they can do (Moderators that is.). In my opinion at least the best way to do that is not to pull out the rule book, and shove it in their face. The most effective way to answer their question is with the creation of some on site info page explaining exactly what they are, and what they can do. That way you avoid the asking of similar questions again, and you don’t offend someone who was simply curious.

What does everyone else think? Do we want people to judge situations, or do we want inflexible, rules to decide for us.

I apologize if this is offensive to anyone, I am not meaning to single out anyone I am just bringing up the point that the moderators need to use their judgment, and the rules, not just the rules.

-Iamthey


[Edited on 10/4/2006]

  • 10.04.2006 4:37 PM PDT

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You know, I do agree with you on this. I see too many harmless threads go the way of the Do-do. And why? Because they slightly break the rules.

Most of the mods are fairly easy-going. One of those I saw, one of the members said "Since this involves moderators, shouldn't it be locked?", and so TGP locked it. He didn't seem happy, though. Damn sycophants....

  • 10.04.2006 4:41 PM PDT
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Seriously, don't take me seriously.

Underground Pleasure - aren't you a bit curious?

The mods (some of them) have really bad judgement.

  • 10.04.2006 4:45 PM PDT
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

If you haven't already read it, this thread should provide some valuable insight into the situation.

Basically, the threads were a bit too common, and though I "campaigned" for the allowance of a particular type of thread, I would agree for the most part that the threads that were (and still are) being created were and are too numerous, and in most cases don't have any real point other than trying to get a moderator to respond.

Say! Guess what I dug up:

Posted by: Mabian
I wouldn't be too surprised if we had people complaining that the mods are being too harsh for locking/deleting threads that are asking questions, and that the mods are not giving other members time to answer, or not answering themselves.


[Edited on 10/4/2006]

  • 10.04.2006 4:46 PM PDT

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Posted by: Recon Number 54
It tends to be pretty cyclic.

The most recent spate of "what do the moderators do?", "what do they think", "what is their favorite _____" and so on, the subject of ego stroking, notoriety, and toadying came up more than once.

We're just members, but members with different hats and white text. Even so, concerns over popularity contests, ass-kissing, and potential cults of personality were brought up.

Those concerns are valid, and as such we're trying to keep the focus more on the community and Bungie-related topics instead of the ninjas. In some cases, it's simple to answer a apparently harmless question, but sooner or later the threads tend to get into areas that just aren't comfortable or constructive.

It's why were tending to lock these sorts of threads early. Not to be snobby, but to just simply keep the forums about the forums.


I can see it that way. I treat the mods with respect, but I'm no Simmons to their Sarge.

As a member, I can safely say there is kind of an odd aura with members and moderators. I think it stems from the feeling that they outrank you, and have priveliges that you don't, and you look up to them. I think it's a strain for the member to see them as a peer, and they want to get to know them on more of a personal level.

  • 10.04.2006 4:59 PM PDT
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Prognatus Archos

Those concerns are valid, and as such we're trying to keep the focus more on the community and Bungie-related topics instead of the ninjas. In some cases, it's simple to answer a apparently harmless question, but sooner or later the threads tend to get into areas that just aren't comfortable or constructive.

I see... then the problem appears that people do not know enough about the ninjas. Maybe someone should add a section to bungie faq, or resources that fully explains their existence, and their abilities, that way these sorts of questions will already be answered.

However, that was just an example of a recent incident. The question I was raising is that it is important to use judgment, and to weigh the circumstances, not just flip open the rule book, and search for some way a post is in violation of a rule. rules set guidelines, and are meant to be interpreted, they are not written in stone, and it is important that those with the authority to make such decisions evaluate the entire situation.

-Iamthey


[Edited on 10/4/2006]

  • 10.04.2006 4:59 PM PDT

"What I see is insanity,
What ever happened to humanity?"

Posted by: lilshorty6478
The mods (some of them) have really bad judgement.


That's not too fair, it's a hard job.

  • 10.04.2006 5:00 PM PDT
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Seriously, don't take me seriously.

Underground Pleasure - aren't you a bit curious?

Posted by: Smealian
Posted by: lilshorty6478
The mods (some of them) have really bad judgement.

That's not too fair, it's a hard job.

I'm just being honest.

  • 10.04.2006 5:16 PM PDT

Ach! Was ist los?

Just remember, Shorty: my bad judgement may be the only reason you're still posting here.



I'm kidding. Really.

  • 10.04.2006 5:33 PM PDT
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  • Exalted Legendary Member

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Prognatus Archos

It maybe a difficult job, but that’s just it, it is you job, and you need to use good judgment to make your actions effective. (Even though you are not being paid.)

-Iamthey

[Edited on 10/4/2006]

  • 10.04.2006 5:42 PM PDT

Posted by: Mr SnuggIy
So I think Jun's a master chef, because he takes off his helmet and your like whoa, I think he's a chef.

So to shorten this up, Jun is master chef.

I totally agree.

  • 10.04.2006 5:42 PM PDT

Sometimes, Shorty is right.

I think the problem is that because there is no other way really for people to stick out to others on this site. There are not custom avatars. There are no special roles for people to obtain anymore besides Theme Master, and even now that is off limits for the time being as they are no longer accepting themes or public use avatars. Sometimes I really wish that they would quit refering to themselves as "members like everyone else." It's like saying police are ordinary citizens just like everyone else. You are not a member, you are a ninja and have abilities over the vast majority of everyone else on this site and the envy of many trying to stick out in a crowd.

Now someone is going to say something like, "Well, people should stand out for their thoughts and words, not some picture or title." True, but that involves keeping a track record of each individual's posts in your head over time in your visits to Bnet. I do not have the patience to subscribe to remembering everyone's little penchant and brain fart. I am aware of a few certain members for which I have my own likes and dislikes.

I understand the complications that arise in allowing everyone to have custom avatars and titles but how many people just breeze through threads looking for moderator posts and ignoring all of the posts by normal members.

Maybe it could be solved by not giving special privilages to members but lessening those to mods with the exception of actual Bungie employees. Now this is where I get labeled a fanboi and perhaps even a typical flame of something like, "(Insert Bnet name) has been a contributing member of this community far longer than you have, and you are in no stance to speak about being a devoted time-honored fan." If that is your stance, you can believe it all you want but it is most likely not the truth. How much do I have to do to be considered a big fan without being a fanboi? Set up websites and forums and groups and make videos and fly the country playing LAN's attending BBQ's and dedicate years of my life to underground movements and all these other diversions before I can just be a fan of a game with an honest deservable stance on things. Now I fear I have gone into fanboi rhetoric and have lost my mind...

  • 10.04.2006 5:46 PM PDT

Spec_Ops_Assault, you have just said what I have been thinking over the past two months. Granted, I think the mods do a pretty good job modding, but I agree with the gist of what you said.

  • 10.04.2006 6:03 PM PDT
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Posted by: lilshorty6478
The mods (some of them) have really bad judgement.

i say that the new mods have bad judgement

  • 10.04.2006 6:11 PM PDT
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The only coin for which I have to purchase loyalty is honor.

Prognatus Archos

Posted by: Spec_Ops_Assault
Maybe it could be solved by not giving special privilages to members but lessening those to mods with the exception of actual Bungie employees.


They need moderators there are not enough bungie employees. Having ninjas is a way to keep from having to hire 60 people just to moderate their online forums. They just need to make sure their ninjas use good judgment in their decisions, and are able to interpret the rules effectively.

-Iamthey

  • 10.04.2006 6:13 PM PDT

"I pledge to punch all switches, to never shoot where I could use grenades, to admit the existence of no level except Total Carnage, to never use caps lock as my "run" key, and to never, ever, leave a single BoB alive."

2B || !2B - Why don't you look Inside the Machine?

Well let me tell you, a while back there used to be a lot of butt smooching going on around here. So much so it really ruined the Column for a while (well the Septagon anyways). So to put a stop to it they have enforced this new, word of mouth, rule strictly. And I agree with it completely, moderators are just people. They only are different when they enforce the rules. If I had an argument to debate with one of them I would do so, but I wouldn't be a fool when I did it. All within good reason...

  • 10.04.2006 6:27 PM PDT

Get Marathon Here
Get Marathon 2 and Infinity Here

As far as the origional topic is concerned, it was specifically a democratically determined decision that threads directly relating to the Ninja's would be locked, no matter how civil or thought provoking the current discussion, as the possibility of them going to places that they should not go is almost guarinteed at some point in their life, and it is best to nip such things in the bud, no matter how promising it looks.

As far as my view on Modship, Mods are normal members with special status, as such they have a higher bar in terms of behavour and such that they are expected (rightly or wrongly) to achieve. Similar to police officers, they are expected to be outstanding citizens of the community, not your average Joe Fanboi.

The problem arises that people do not distinguish between educated and inteligent oppinion, as voiced by a Mod, and a post that has meaning in terms of official Bungie matters. Perhaps it is because intuatively, we do not expect to see normal guys walking around with Mod powers, no matter how outstanding they are in the community, and in the back of our minds expect people on a companies offical forums that hold positions of authority to actually have authority in matters relating to that company, as apposed to simply having the power to lock a thread or ban a user.

I know I personally have difficulty with the destinction even though I know that they know no more than I do. Just as I naturally assume a police officer knows more about the law and what is happening in terms of the law and law related things in the community (such as crime rate and criminals that are of concern) it is natural to assume that such "officers" of Bungie know more than we do, and it's hard to get that out of your head, even if you know better.

In terms of their judement, I see little fault in their decisions to lock threads etc. they just follow the rules as best they can, but I believe I have heard it a few times that the rules are final and not open to exceptions.

But sadly many (many many) B.net users don't know this, and so as to not be the cause of many a rumour the Mods tend to not post very much, which is unfortunant as I miss some of their posts from before they were Ninjas.

That's the way I see it anyway, I haven't had the opprotunity to read a Mod actually explain it in detail...

[Edited on 10/4/2006]

  • 10.04.2006 6:27 PM PDT
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Posted by: Spec_Ops_Assault
I think the problem is that because there is no other way really for people to stick out to others on this site. There are not custom avatars. There are no special roles for people to obtain anymore besides Theme Master, and even now that is off limits for the time being as they are no longer accepting themes or public use avatars. Sometimes I really wish that they would quit refering to themselves as "members like everyone else." It's like saying police are ordinary citizens just like everyone else. You are not a member, you are a ninja and have abilities over the vast majority of everyone else on this site and the envy of many trying to stick out in a crowd.


How about "members with responsibilities?" They have special powers, the white text, and the avatars, but how do the latter two actually make them different, besides the very obvious visual differences? They are members responsible for maintaining the community. They are put on pedastals and worshipped on many occasions, but that doesn't actually make them any different. They are simply perceived as different.

Now someone is going to say something like, "Well, people should stand out for their thoughts and words, not some picture or title." True, but that involves keeping a track record of each individual's posts in your head over time in your visits to Bnet. I do not have the patience to subscribe to remembering everyone's little penchant and brain fart. I am aware of a few certain members for which I have my own likes and dislikes.

Very true, but why does the hat make the member? Why should a person stand out because they have a cool-looking avatar or title, and not because they have a way with words or really try to improve the community? Why must everything be measured with something physical, like a promotion?

Actually, I don't differ much from you in that I have a few members I do and don't like based solely on the content they post. The rest are members that I no opinion in either way, though I could name quite a few members that I've seen quite often off of the top of my head.

Maybe it could be solved by not giving special privilages to members but lessening those to mods with the exception of actual Bungie employees.

Something I would like is if you could clear this up for me, because I don't quite understand. Are you saying that the mods should have the same rank, text color, and set of avatars that everyone else does, but still have the ability to moderate?

  • 10.04.2006 6:53 PM PDT

I hate everything, but it's not my fault.

Posted by: C0bra
Posted by: lilshorty6478
The mods (some of them) have really bad judgement.

i say that the new mods have bad judgement

If you or anyone else has a problem with me, please talk to me about it via PM. I will talk to you about anything I have ever done (if you're nice about it) and try to explain my rationale. Or maybe I truly did make a mistake. I do the best I can, but I'm not perfect.
I'm serious about this. If you think I made a mistake, please let me know about it.

Unless of course you're just upset about a few decisions, but you don't know who did it, so you just blame the new mods, which wouldn't surprise me too much.

Back to the subject, I never liked those threads very much because they aren't exactly valuable, and there are really too many of them. Really does, "Can a moderator get blacklisted?" or "How many PMs do mods get?" provide a good discussion? I can however see the "Should mods post more?" as more borderline. But most of the time, they exist only to suck up to the mods in varying degrees, or for us to be silly and make obscure jokes. Which is not bad, but it doesn't really belong on the main forums. The Septagon is for the whole community, not for a very small segment of it, and moderator discussion usually dominates the forum unless it's locked. But that's just me. I do appreciate threads like this because I think the more we discuss policies, the better said policies will be (or at least the rationale will be better understood), and you are right, judgement, not rote following, is necessary for a good job.

Mabian, I think he means that we should not have white text and/or a custom avatar because that elevates us too much. Removal of the text could be benificial, and although I do like my avatar, I wouldn't be terribly upset if I had to switch back to my old one.

I'm starting way too many sentences with conjunctions.

[Edited on 10/4/2006]

  • 10.04.2006 7:02 PM PDT
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Location: Outlaws' Summit.

Posted by:Mabian

Something I would like is if you could clear this up for me, because I don't quite understand. Are you saying that the mods should have the same rank, text color, and set of avatars that everyone else does, but still have the ability to moderate?


Very funny that you should mention that, Mabian. Because I was literally just thinking about what that would be like, and then I saw your post.

After thinking about it, I decided that it would ruin the balance between those who enforce the rules and those who are being enforced. Granted, it would sure lessen all the "sucking up" and whatnot, at least to a degree.

Think about being a moderator in your group. You have all the powers they do (except moving threads,) but none of the fancy text or avatar.

And to be honest, I think that they should keep it the way it is. As far as "ranks" go, Moderator is definitely above Members. And in order to help us understand that, they have the text/avatar.

Would there be sucking up if they didn't have these things? Don't know. Though I'm sure that the majority of people who fantasize about being a Moderator are doing it because they want a cool looking avatar and the white text. But can we blame people for wanting to be a "Cool guy Moderator?" It's just natural that those who have the power are looked up to by those who don't have it.

You guys are like "Super-Heros." Ok, that's a bit of a stretch, but bear with me. You guys have the "Ninja Tools" and you sweep in, Lock a thread, and provide a witty explanation. I don't want to say it's a superflous show, but some people will just look at what you guys do and say "Cool! I wish I could do that!"

But they've earned it. It's a fitting reward for someone who watches over the Forums. Take away what makes them special, and they'll be nothing more than vigilantes, so to speak.

'Tis a touchy subject- the balance of power. But this is a dictatorship, under Achronos' rule. What he says goes.

  • 10.04.2006 7:03 PM PDT
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I wouldn't be too surprised if a few of the moderators decided to quit because they lost the only perks to being a mod. Then again, perhaps I am just underestimating their commitment to the forums, and even when they have everything removed they would still do the same thing they are doing now.

And I would imagine that it would remove a little bit of the sucking-up, since I suspect quite a few members notice the mods through their posts, and wouldn't know who to suck up to if they didn't see a "moderator" post.

  • 10.04.2006 7:08 PM PDT
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Posted by: Mabian
I wouldn't be too surprised if a few of the moderators decided to quit because they lost the only perks to being a mod. Then again, perhaps I am just underestimating their commitment to the forums, and even when they have everything removed they would still do the same thing they are doing now.


I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. When they agreed to it, they agreed to cleaning up the Forums, not having blinding text and a fancy picture/title. But I think that working that hard does deserve a .............I don't want to say "Reward" but I can't find a better word for this situation.

And I would imagine that it would remove a little bit of the sucking-up, since I suspect quite a few members notice the mods through their posts, and wouldn't know who to suck up to if they didn't see a "moderator" post.

Very true. Many a time a moderator can post the word: "Pwnt." And immidiately the next five replies will be "OMGLOL I can't believe he said that!"

Whereas if a normal member (even the well known ones) were to post that, it would probably go un-noticed.

But that's just the way it is. They're a step above us, and we (for the most part) have to accept it. And if they don't want the attention, they should do something about it, which is currently being handled.

But I will say this, Moderators: As long as you guys are doing what you're doing, you will always be given attention, and your words will always be replied to. Is it your text? Your avatar? Possibly. Actually, probably. But you've earned it, it's who you are, and ......yeah I'm done rambing. Don't know what more to say *waits for Mabian to continue discussion*

  • 10.04.2006 7:41 PM PDT
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Prognatus Archos

Too many people view their text color, and their avatar as a symbol of authority, it is just one of those privileges that they have, a repayment of sorts, for the extra effort they have to put in. Any way, we are getting off topic. People are getting to worked up over the moderators that have posted that we have lost the original intention of this thread. The purpose of this thread was to discuss how the rules we are governed by are viewed. I think that some of the moderators tend to view them as resolute, and nonnegotiable, some so much so that they begin to eliminate the judgment aspect of their job. The rules are reactionary, and are aimed at solving problems in specific circumstances. It is then the moderators job to make the decision whether or not a post in question falls under the category of violation. Not simply by looking at the basic content or topic, but also by the opinions and arguments brought up in them as well as the general mood of the thread. If its rude, and the people in it are negatively criticizing people then by all means shut it down, but if it is a constructive, and good atmosphere thread allow the discussion to continue, or at least move it to a more relevant category.

As to address the moderator questions that seem to be a blight on bungie.net, I am of course referring to the thousands of times that newer members ask what is a moderator what can they do ect. My solution is to add a faq entry, or article explaining exactly what they do, the different categories, what privileges they have, and other relevant information.

-Iamthey

  • 10.04.2006 7:45 PM PDT
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Very well. I'll make the assumption that they were willing to help out without the reward before they became moderators, and would be willing to do the same now.

I'd say it's a combination of the power and perks. People want it, and believe that if they suck up, they'll get it. If they want to be normal members of the community, they must brave through it all, until the suck ups begin to realize that they aren't going to get anywhere, and decide to stop (of course, only to be replaced by others).

And there is a part of your post I wish to address:

But that's just the way it is. They're a step above us, and we (for the most part) have to accept it.

I think the very idea that the mods wish to implant in our heads that they are normal members means they are not a step above us. They don't want to be put on pedastals and be treated as higher beings. It happens despite their many protests, and they have to deal with it, but most, if not all, of the mods have at one point or another said that they missed the ability to post without being followed by suck ups.

P.S. Iam, have you read the current Moderator FAQ yet?

[Edited on 10/4/2006]

  • 10.04.2006 7:51 PM PDT

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