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Subject: Lets not start a bureaucracy ...
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I don't think it's a bureaucracy. Sure, sometimes I'll think that a thread was ok, and a mod will lock it, and I will be like "Why did they lock this?" But it's up to the mods to decide what or what isn't locked.

And I don't really see the mods as anyone "special". If Recon or GameJunkie were to post in a thread, I'd think that they were justa normal member...with white text and a kick-ass avatar, but a regular member nonetheless.

  • 10.04.2006 7:57 PM PDT

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Posted by: Recon Number 54

We're just members, but members with different hats and white text. Even so, concerns over popularity contests, ass-kissing, and potential cults of personality were brought up.



I don't even have a hat. :'(

All complaints and opinions aside, we're all human; none of us are perfect. The mods lock threads they think should be locked; they're mods for a reason. Let them do their thing. I didn't read the threads in question. If someone PM'd them to me, I might change my outlook. Probably not, but if you're willing to send them to me, I'm willing to read them.

[Edited on 10/4/2006]

  • 10.04.2006 8:03 PM PDT
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Location: Outlaws' Summit.

Posted by: Mabian

And there is a part of your post I wish to address:

But that's just the way it is. They're a step above us, and we (for the most part) have to accept it.

I think the very idea that the mods wish to implant in our heads that they are normal members means they are not a step above us. They don't want to be put on pedastals and be treated as higher beings. It happens despite their many protests, and they have to deal with it, but most, if not all, of the mods have at one point or another said that they missed the ability to post without being followed by suck ups.


Yeah, that's true. I kinda jumped the gun a little on that statement.

I know they're members like us, but we all have those moments when we first start out here and see the white text and immidiately think "Cool!! Who's that guy?"

Because he's different. It's kinda like being a Prince among paupers. Ok, another bad analogy, but still, the majority of people who don't know exactly what's up with this site will take the white text and view it as "I'm higher than you" and even though their status is higher than the regular members, their character is what matters. And as you develope and mature on this site, you'll realize that, and start looking up to other "regular" people as mentors, as opposed to the Moderators.

And until people realize that they (the ninjas) are "members" like us, they will see why threads about them aren't allowed.

I believe I once said that I interpret a post aimed at a moderator to fall under one of these categories:

A.) I have a question for you that I believe only you can answer. (Curiousity)

B.) I have a problem and I need your help to fix it. (Community Involvement)

C.) I have a suggestion for how you can improve something. (Contructive Criticism)

The only problem is that one of these three arise too often, I guess. Which is why it's not allowed to be discussed anymore.

But can we blame the members for wanting to spark conversation? Sure, when it has been done before. But that will always continue, regardless of how many FAQ's or stickies are out there. However, the current system of what we're doing (leaving everything to be answered by visiting the FAQ in that Septagon Threads of Interest Sticky) is working .....pretty well for now. Anything else can be answered in PM form.

[Edited on 10/4/2006]

  • 10.04.2006 8:09 PM PDT
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Posted by: C0bra
Posted by: lilshorty6478
The mods (some of them) have really bad judgement.

i say that the new mods have bad judgement


Of course we do - we're the newbies. Much of the whole moderation thing comes down to personal judgement and sometimes we make bad decisions. At least it lets you know we are still human.

If you have a gripe with a decision though, PM the moderator and have them justify it.

  • 10.04.2006 10:35 PM PDT

I'll be on my own side.

Well, if a member thinks you have bad judgment, you think he's going to accept your reason?

  • 10.04.2006 11:27 PM PDT
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First you wanted us to lock all the moderator topics, now they have to stay open. make up your mind. >.>

Looking at those four threads, I see little reason for them to be open, with the new rules in place. A simple pm to a moderator was good enough to get the answer.

I believe this answers several questions as well. I think the Mod faq should be a bit more in the open, with people not reading the stickies and all that.

[Edited on 10/5/2006]

  • 10.05.2006 2:51 AM PDT
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Posted by: Recon Number 54
We're just members, but members with different hats and white text. Even so, concerns over popularity contests, ass-kissing, and potential cults of personality were brought up.


As much as you guys would like to think that, it's not true. To the average poster, when he/she sees that white text in a thread of theirs, they will get all excited because they think a Bungie higher-up posted there. I know I used to.

Also, I don't really recall the last time "just a member" was in the Community Spotlight. If I'm wrong, then someone please point that out.

  • 10.05.2006 3:30 AM PDT

Are the stickies invisible to people? Is the title, "Septagon Stickies (useful info and whatnot - read this)" not specific enough for people to read? If you look at that thread, it states:
Moderator FAQ

Look at this to get your burning questions about moderators answered. If you still have a question after looking at the FAQ, PM a moderator (look here for a list of the moderators).

Is this not clear enough? Is it really necessary for us to put, "DO NOT CREATE THREADS JUST TO ASK MODERATORS A QUESTION!"? How much more do we need to dumb things down so that every single person here understands?

If there is a question/comment that actually means something to the community, please feel free to post it in The Septagon. If you want to know how many PMs I get, when I am "active" on the forums or what my favorite type of cheese is, PM me and I will tell you.



And before any smart asses PM me: American. My favorite type of cheese is American. White, to be more specific.

Edit:Posted by: dudemanwhatsup
Also, I don't really recall the last time "just a member" was in the Community Spotlight. If I'm wrong, then someone please point that out.
Xerxdeej, Anne Wolanski, imSuck, Stuntmutt, Ducain, Foo Mo Jive or Mintz. Yeah, they aren't moderators (or Bungie employees). Do you want a spotlight just because you post on Bungie.net? Sorry, you need to actually do something to benefit the community...

EditEdit: Narcogen, Jillybean, BOLL, Iain "Dalteth" Nelson...

But hey, you almost had a point there...

[Edited on 10/5/2006]

  • 10.05.2006 3:31 AM PDT
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Who was it that requested that Moderator focused threads be locked?

The members.

Yet now the members come and complain about something they asked for.

  • 10.05.2006 5:16 AM PDT
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Posted by: The Lone Heretic
Who was it that requested that Moderator focused threads be locked?

The members.

Yet now the members come and complain about something they asked for.


'Tis just a handful though.

Not a lot of people were here during Banshee Barron's "Riding the Pickle" rant. Sure, it got a hefty amount of replies, but that was due to the same people posting about how to fix the problem.

Hence why there are still threads about Moderators being made.

I'll say this though: If a new member who just joined 2 days ago sees a Ninja and thinks "Cool !! What's that guy?" He's probably going to make a thread about it to find out. Chances are he won't go to the Septagon and see the Moderator FAQ link.

That's why we as members should just answer the question (intelligently; not that much humor is needed) and then provide a link to the Moderator FAQ.

Wow. This whole thread is about "Moderator this" and "Moderator that." I'm getting tired of typing that word :-P

  • 10.05.2006 5:39 AM PDT
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Posted by: ICEMAN ASSASS1N
Wow. This whole thread is about "Moderator this" and "Moderator that." I'm getting tired of typing that word :-P


You may see this as a post regarding ninjas, but in fact we are finally getting to the topic, the rules and how they should be interpreted.

And to touch on the Mod FAQ. I have seen it, and it has two problems. One its hidden in the FAQ of the ninjas group, and two its not direct enough. I never saw a list of ninja categories. And, yes I do know what they are, but that is only because of how long I have been around. To a new player it would be almost impossible to figure out any information on them, other than “DON’T ASK TO BE ONE!” or something of similar context. Most of these people that do ask, show up at a time when no one is asking questions about moderators, and seeing that there is no extensive information page, they see the only other way to get information is to ask. (Keep in mind they don’t know Achronos, or really any other ninjas, and would not think to pm them.)

-Iamthey

  • 10.05.2006 6:42 AM PDT
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Posted by: iamthey
(Keep in mind they don’t know Achronos, or really any other ninjas, and would not think to pm them.)

-Iamthey


That's why we as members should just answer the question and leave well enough alone. Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

Lets say someone makes a thread-

Posted by: Curious Member
How do you become a moderator?


Posted by: Helpful Member
You can become one by demonstrating excellent forum characteristics, having knowledge of Bungie and their games, and using proper grammar and people skills.

Read more about it in the Moderator FAQ, which is located in their group, HFCS. You can PM them as well.

  • 10.05.2006 6:50 AM PDT

Posted by: iamthey
And to touch on the Mod FAQ. I have seen it, and it has two problems. One its hidden in the FAQ of the ninjas group...
It is not that hidden, considering it is mentioned in the sticky that has the words "useful information" and "read this" in the title.

...and two its not direct enough.PM one of us if you don't believe it is clear enough.

I never saw a list of ninja categories.What do you mean by different categories? There are only two types of moderators, and that is addressed in the first FAQ (and the FAQ even mentions who the "gold text" people are).

(Keep in mind they don’t know Achronos, or really any other ninjas, and would not think to pm them.)They would if they read the sticky that has the words "useful information" and "read this" in the title.

That's the problem. People feel as though we need to do everything for them, when all they have to do is read what readily available.

  • 10.05.2006 6:57 AM PDT
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In a fruitless attempt to defend my own actions, at least I answered the questions before I locked the threads.

-TGP-

  • 10.05.2006 7:20 AM PDT
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Posted by: iamthey
Yes these rules need to be enforced, but there needs to be a bit of judgment on the part of the one who is doing the locking. It is the moderators job to interpret the rule, and see it the thread in question was in any violation.


I'm pretty sure that's what they do. If the decision is not one you agree with do not make the asumption they have short judgement.

  • 10.05.2006 8:37 AM PDT
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Iam, you're asking for better judgement, but how could judgement be better? Do threads about how many PMs the mods have contribute to the community?

If a member asks a reasonable question (i.e. who are the moderators?; how does one become a moderator?), they deserve an answer, but do they need more than one?

Here's another way of putting it: Why would someone want to know what the moderators do when they don't moderate? If they really wanted to know, wouldn't they ask the moderator themselves, rather than making a thread about it? If they don't seem to actually want to know, why should their threads stay open?

  • 10.05.2006 9:50 AM PDT

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I personally think all that is need to be said has been said, so I'll just summarize my idea.

The moderators are human. They do occasionally make mistakes. However, I rarely see them lock a thread that has no reason to be locked, or isn't against the rules. If they lock a topic about the moderators, that will cause other users to believe it is OK to create topics about users. People are like sheep, whether they think they've ascended past the "basic pathing" level and "follow-the-other-guy" style of things. Many people on the forums aren't really free-thinkers. They just copy what someone else is doing, since it "worked" for them.

I personally think the moderators are doing awesome jobs at locking or keeping open appropriate topics. Besides, if you remember

Of course, Recon once said:

Bungie.Net is not a soapbox in the town square. It's not a democracy or even a republic. It is a benevolent dictatorship. Bungie makes the rules, you have no rights. Bungie says "play nicely" or you WILL be playing outside.


And Shishka has said:

Welcome to reality:

You have no rights here. You have no freedom of speech here. Your only freedoms are those granted to you by Bungie. As moderators, our job is the enforcing of the rules Bungie has chosen for the forums. And when it comes down to your freedom of speech, Bungie covered that quite clearly in the Code of Conduct, available for you to read from a link at the bottom of the website. Of importance to this argument you're trying to make is the following line:

Bungie controls everything. You have no rights. Play nice.

That's the bottom line. You want to post here? You play by Bungie's rules.


Bungie.net is a dictatorship, but this dictator sends around his Police, if you will call them that. The police, are what we call the Moderators. They're enforcing the rules of the dictatorship. That's my piece on that..

[begin accusations of brown-nosing, if that be your style]

  • 10.05.2006 9:50 AM PDT

Posted by: impurity
This thread reminds me of a song.
And that song reminds me of Ben Stiller in a fat suit... I'm not seeing the connection.

And Senor said I was the only one...

  • 10.05.2006 10:27 AM PDT

Sandswept Studios Design Director

Visit us and check out our games at Sandswept.net!

~~Pardon Our Dust.~~

That's what he told me too!

... Hmm, he's in trouble now.

  • 10.05.2006 10:36 AM PDT

Posted by: Johnrap
There's an expression you give them an inch they take a mile.

It's sounds horrible. It sounds like prejudging. It just sounds like evil. I'm not a fan of the saying. However, most unfortunately, it's true.

You want to be nice. You and I would like to be nice. Bungie would like to be nice. Recon and Dmbfan09 I'm sure would like to be nice. Shishka rather enjoys his work, but that's besides the point. The point is, you really can't be nice to a mass of people all at once. If you try, you'll end up hanging upside down somewhere. Because not everyone in the mass is going to reciprocate, it's a matter of statistics.

The good news, that people are usually pretty nice. Rules on paper are not. They simply can not be.


I know another expression: Rules were made to be broken.

Even though those rules are enforced with an iron fist and a wet noodle, if you make rules, someone will break them. Most times repeatedly.

No one will be nice all of the time, since we're human. But we have to compensate for that. Since some people will just be stupid and brake the rules for no reason, they're going to be punished. But some people will be having a bad day, or they got run over by their mother, and will brake the rules without meaning to.

Let's keep in mind that this forum isn't the center of the universe; it's a place to come on once in a while to talk about Bungie and all it's glory. The mods are here to keep order (so to speak).

It's a sad day when an internet game forum turnes into a bureaucatic discussion.

  • 10.05.2006 1:25 PM PDT
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The point is simple. If a thread is slightly breaking a rule, yet still is constructive, a moderator could simply decide to overlook the minor infraction it is making. For example...

While the ninja related threads were open, there was a positive discussion, where the newer members could try to glean some light on the subject of forum ninjas. However, the thread was closed. Why, why was it closed? It was closed because it displayed conversation regarding a specific group of people which happens to be against the rules. Like this group of people this rule was created for a specific reason. Once again although in this circumstance the threads were partially guilty, their content was positive. There was no caustic, or rude discussion, in addition there was also no flaming. In this case I would have suggested laying aside the one or the other form of judging (i.e if it breaks any part of the rule its all bad), and evaluated whether it was doing more good, then it was bad. This would only apply to honest questions, not to irrelevant ones. (ex what’s your favorite color) Later on I would have pmed the user, and asked them to not create any future ninja related threads.

Posted by: Sniper McGee
I know another expression: Rules were made to be broken.

Even though those rules are enforced with an iron fist and a wet noodle, if you make rules, someone will break them. Most times repeatedly.

No one will be nice all of the time, since we're human. But we have to compensate for that. Since some people will just be stupid and brake the rules for no reason, they're going to be punished. But some people will be having a bad day, or they got run over by their mother, and will brake the rules without meaning to.

Let's keep in mind that this forum isn't the center of the universe; it's a place to come on once in a while to talk about Bungie and all it's glory. The mods are here to keep order (so to speak).

It's a sad day when an internet game forum turnes into a bureaucatic discussion.


Although my opinion is lax on threads, when it comes to people, if someone is flaming, spamming, or seriously breaking rules they need to be confronted. We can not allow our community to fall into shambles, because we allowed people who hate Bungie, and hate the rest of the member population, to spread their distaste. If you have a problem with an individual in the community do not bring it in to the public eye. Just solve it over the pm system, or ignore them completely.

-Iamthey

  • 10.05.2006 1:52 PM PDT
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Posted by: iamthey
This would only apply to honest questions, not to irrelevant ones. (ex what’s your favorite color) Later on I would have pmed the user, and asked them to not create any future ninja related threads.
-Iamthey


But now you have to figure out what lies on each side of that line. But then again, once the relevant questions are answered, why should they stay open?

  • 10.05.2006 1:59 PM PDT

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