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Subject: Rank Names

It was a cold day near the southern base in Blood Gulch. Cortana and I were relaxing over a game of Go Fish, WHEN OUT OF NO WHERE 700 BANSHEES CAME FLYING IN!!! I GRABED MY SPARTAN LASER AND LET HELL REIGN DOWN UPON THEM. I HOPPED IN THE NEAREST WARTHOG AND TOLD CORTANA TO GET IN.

Posted by: AkJak
Again, the problem comes in the form of elitism. People would rub their higher ranks in others faces.

Also, regulars members would want to be higher ranks and would start all kinds of messes. It's not worth it. But good suggestion.

-Akjak

Oh really? Do you have any past evidence to support this? The way I see it, the only example of this being implemented, Theme Masters, worked flawlessly. Nobody rubbed it in another person's face. There was incentive to become a theme master, but no elitism about it. Anywhere. How do you figure it will be elitist?

I hate it how people on this site love elitism to death. Of course evidence doesn't matter! Why should it? What really matters is that we feel bad about it, so we shouldn't do it. Forget all the incentive that comes from it, and forget the fact that there isn't any evidence it would fail miserably. We've had it drilled into our brains that elitism is bad, and this has the potential to be elitist, so it is bad.

What ever happen to logic?

[Edited on 11/29/2006]

  • 11.29.2006 1:21 PM PDT
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Posted by: Pink Menace
Posted by: AkJak
Again, the problem comes in the form of elitism. People would rub their higher ranks in others faces.

Also, regulars members would want to be higher ranks and would start all kinds of messes. It's not worth it. But good suggestion.

-Akjak

Oh really? Do you have any past evidence to support this? The way I see it, the only example of this being implemented, Theme Masters, worked flawlessly. Nobody rubbed it in another person's face. There was incentive to become a theme master, but no elitism about it. Anywhere. How do you figure it will be elitist?


It just would. Trust me.

  • 11.29.2006 1:25 PM PDT

It was a cold day near the southern base in Blood Gulch. Cortana and I were relaxing over a game of Go Fish, WHEN OUT OF NO WHERE 700 BANSHEES CAME FLYING IN!!! I GRABED MY SPARTAN LASER AND LET HELL REIGN DOWN UPON THEM. I HOPPED IN THE NEAREST WARTHOG AND TOLD CORTANA TO GET IN.

Oh. Just trust you. Alright- I have a great way for you to make hundreds of thousands of dollars! All I need is your bank account or the bank account of your parents. I don't really have any evidence to prove that I can earn you money, but that isn't important. Look, just trust me. You give me your life savings and I'll make you rich.

Trust me.

EDIT: On a less sarcastic note, why should I trust you? What gives you more credit then me when it comes to determining how the populace of Bungie.net will react to a certain change? Do you know better then me for any specific reason, or do I just need to trust you?

[Edited on 11/29/2006]

  • 11.29.2006 1:27 PM PDT
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Having member all the time can get boring.

  • 11.29.2006 1:31 PM PDT
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I think those who have posted before me have made quite valid points. Save us both some time and please go back and read them.

  • 11.29.2006 1:31 PM PDT

It was a cold day near the southern base in Blood Gulch. Cortana and I were relaxing over a game of Go Fish, WHEN OUT OF NO WHERE 700 BANSHEES CAME FLYING IN!!! I GRABED MY SPARTAN LASER AND LET HELL REIGN DOWN UPON THEM. I HOPPED IN THE NEAREST WARTHOG AND TOLD CORTANA TO GET IN.

Posted by: Snap Dragon
I think those who have posted before me have made quite valid points. Save us both some time and please go back and read them.

Don't insult me by assuming I haven't read the previous page. There were no valid points in my eyes. People were repeating the same nonsense. They have no way to back up their statements that it would spark elitism. The only instance which it has been implemented in worked! Why are people here so afraid to add ranks? All the evidence says that as long as we were careful it would be fine. All of it. I didn't see any solid evidence explaining the position opposite of mine. It was all a statement without any sources, fact or anything resembling either of them. It was all opinion.

  • 11.29.2006 1:36 PM PDT
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Location: Outlaws' Summit.

We've gone at this before, Pink, and you did open up my eyes to a new perspective (for that I thank you), but I still think elitism would be a problem.

You used Theme Masters as an example, and yes, they're a good example of how it could work. But the Theme Masters are very mature people who know what they're doing.

The average Bungie.net user who likes to post to get attention doesn't. And I know you don't visit The Flood that often, but there are clear instances where the......"less mature" members would use 'status' a means of starting trouble with others.

Heck, just the other day I heard a member say he has "Seniority" over new members in The Flood. And a couple weeks ago a new member came in and started posting, and this other member who was here for only 8 months said he isn't a "Flood Regular" and should go back to where he came from.

Could you imagine what would happen if they had titles?

But I do see what you're saying about Elitism, Pink- it's not as bad as it sometimes is portrayed to be. The examples I cited were more or less isolated incidents; not stuff we see every day. In theory, it could work, maybe should work, but I guess it's something this site as a whole would be better off without.

[Edited on 11/29/2006]

  • 11.29.2006 1:40 PM PDT
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Posted by: Pink Menace
Posted by: Snap Dragon
I think those who have posted before me have made quite valid points. Save us both some time and please go back and read them.

Don't insult me by assuming I haven't read the previous page. There were no valid points in my eyes. People were repeating the same nonsense. They have no way to back up their statements that it would spark elitism. The only instance which it has been implemented in worked! Why are people here so afraid to add ranks? All the evidence says that as long as we were careful it would be fine. All of it. I didn't see any solid evidence explaining the position opposite of mine. It was all a statement without any sources, fact or anything resembling either of them. It was all opinion.


And your argument isn't opinionated in any way?

It's not so much elitism (in my opinion), as it is people's inability to handle such a thing. It happened with coloured text, it happened with the join date, and it happened with the post count (very old feature).

The reason Theme Master worked was because those who got the rank were upstanding members of the b.net community, who were willing to put time and effort into making a theme, and not jeapordize their place on the site by being an elitist jerk.

  • 11.29.2006 1:45 PM PDT

It was a cold day near the southern base in Blood Gulch. Cortana and I were relaxing over a game of Go Fish, WHEN OUT OF NO WHERE 700 BANSHEES CAME FLYING IN!!! I GRABED MY SPARTAN LASER AND LET HELL REIGN DOWN UPON THEM. I HOPPED IN THE NEAREST WARTHOG AND TOLD CORTANA TO GET IN.

Double post =[


[Edited on 11/29/2006]

  • 11.29.2006 1:45 PM PDT

It was a cold day near the southern base in Blood Gulch. Cortana and I were relaxing over a game of Go Fish, WHEN OUT OF NO WHERE 700 BANSHEES CAME FLYING IN!!! I GRABED MY SPARTAN LASER AND LET HELL REIGN DOWN UPON THEM. I HOPPED IN THE NEAREST WARTHOG AND TOLD CORTANA TO GET IN.

Posted by: AkJak
Again, the problem comes in the form of elitism. People would rub their higher ranks in others faces.

Also, regulars members would want to be higher ranks and would start all kinds of messes. It's not worth it. But good suggestion.

-Akjak

I didn't see any evidence here. He had his opinion, which he's entitled to, but I argue with facts.

Posted by: AkJak
Because not just one or two people would do it. Everybody would. We used to have a "post count" on these forums. Ever wonder why we don't anymore?

It's not an excuse, it is one of many reasons.

-Akjak

Again, it's an opinion. He shows no example of everyone being elitist in an enviroment which permits it.

Posted by: AkJak
Elitists like to feel good about themselves by cutting down or making themselves look better than other people. Not unlike women.

If they went somewhere else, new ones would come here. It's a fact of life.

-Akjak

I don't disagree with the first part, but again, no evidence. Why is it a fact of life? Is it a fact of life that elitism is unpunishable?

Posted by: Scythe252
We really don't need ranks. The result would be the same as join dates. Ever notice why they aren't there? Older guys at b.net thought they were better than the newer ones. Ranks would do the same. Plus, it's just a title. The only thing you can really base it off is posts, and some guy can just spam for the heck of it.

Join dates were not removed because older members were abusing them. They were removed because they served no purpose. On occasion they were used as ammo, but I've never seen it becoming a problem. Most cases that used join dates as somethign to argue with were justified.

And how do you know ranks would do the same? A rank can be taken away. A join date can't, aside from being banned. There's incentive not to be a jerk with it. Either wear your rank responsibly, or don't wear it at all.

Posted by: evilcam
Even though I would like some more individual customization on this site, we have proven time and again that we (as a whole community) cannot handle the responsibility without some kind of elitism rearing it ugly head. I wish that we could, but we simply can't.
Rest was snipped, was other ideas and not against ranks.

Examples? When has "elitism reared its ugly head... time and time again"? I don't recall this, and I've been here awhile.

Posted by: Scythe252
I don't think ranks are such a great idea. Sure, groups have them and smaller forums do, but when you've got such a huge forum, it get's kinda iffy.

Again, no evidence. At Scythe didn't pretend he was stating a fact. It seemed to me that he knew it was an opinion.

_____________________

Posted by: Snap Dragon
Posted by: Pink Menace
Posted by: Snap Dragon
I think those who have posted before me have made quite valid points. Save us both some time and please go back and read them.

Don't insult me by assuming I haven't read the previous page. There were no valid points in my eyes. People were repeating the same nonsense. They have no way to back up their statements that it would spark elitism. The only instance which it has been implemented in worked! Why are people here so afraid to add ranks? All the evidence says that as long as we were careful it would be fine. All of it. I didn't see any solid evidence explaining the position opposite of mine. It was all a statement without any sources, fact or anything resembling either of them. It was all opinion.


And your argument isn't opinionated in any way?

It's not so much elitism (in my opinion), as it is people's inability to handle such a thing. It happened with coloured text, it happened with the join date, and it happened with the post count (very old feature).

The reason Theme Master worked was because those who got the rank were upstanding members of the b.net community, who were willing to put time and effort into making a theme, and not jeapordize their place on the site by being an elitist jerk.


It happened with colored text because there was no risk of losing colored text. If it was a gift given for a certain amount of work you did that could be revoked at any time do you think people would have abused it? I don't think they would have. As stated above, people never really abused their join dates and I think it was a bad decision to remove them. The post count was doomed from the start. We have evidence to support it. Every forum I've been in with a post count is a mess. But I've never seen a forum with just ranks, no post count, so there isn't a really good example of this.

Heh. See, I was thinking this whole time that ranks would be given to upstanding citizens of the community who earned them. What was your idea? Give it to any person who asks for it?

And mine was hardly opinionated compared to those arguing against me.

To ICEMAN: I can see where you're coming from. I dont' think we all have the same standards for giving out a title. For me, a title would have to be earned. It wouldn't be easy to get. It would take time and dedication to get any sort of rank, and when you did get it you'd better be damn sure not to be the slightest bit elitist with it or you're back to square one.





[Edited on 11/29/2006]

  • 11.29.2006 1:46 PM PDT
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omg e1337ism!

  • 11.29.2006 1:55 PM PDT

It was a cold day near the southern base in Blood Gulch. Cortana and I were relaxing over a game of Go Fish, WHEN OUT OF NO WHERE 700 BANSHEES CAME FLYING IN!!! I GRABED MY SPARTAN LASER AND LET HELL REIGN DOWN UPON THEM. I HOPPED IN THE NEAREST WARTHOG AND TOLD CORTANA TO GET IN.

Posted by: Kilroy
omg e1337ism!

no ur a 1337ist -_-

  • 11.29.2006 1:58 PM PDT
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Quick question Pink: Is elitism fine so long as it is tacit?

  • 11.29.2006 2:07 PM PDT

It was a cold day near the southern base in Blood Gulch. Cortana and I were relaxing over a game of Go Fish, WHEN OUT OF NO WHERE 700 BANSHEES CAME FLYING IN!!! I GRABED MY SPARTAN LASER AND LET HELL REIGN DOWN UPON THEM. I HOPPED IN THE NEAREST WARTHOG AND TOLD CORTANA TO GET IN.

Posted by: Mabian
Quick question Pink: Is elitism fine so long as it is tacit?

That depends on the situation. There is no balck and white answer, only shades of grey. Give me a situation and I'll tell you though =]

For instance, in one situation elitism could be taken as commanding a certain amount of respect or general authority. An example, the Flood, as Iceman pointed out, tends to have its own very tight community. I'm sure that some members there have an unspoken authority or respect among their peers, in the Flood. The people who frequent the Flood may not mind, but others reading it may think of it as elitist.

  • 11.29.2006 2:23 PM PDT
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Posted by: Pink Menace
Posted by: Mabian
Quick question Pink: Is elitism fine so long as it is tacit?

That depends on the situation. There is no balck and white answer, only shades of grey. Give me a situation and I'll tell you though =]


Well, as I already said, you don't need to actually perform a certain action in order to be an elitist. You do not have to necessarily act like you are better, but simply think you're better.

So I'm sure that you would definitely agree with me in saying that acting as though you are better than other people is bad. That's our explicit elitism. Member A has a higher rank than Member B, so Member A boasts (and, eventually, gets banned).

Now what about implicit elitism? Sure, there are no problems between people, but isn't it best to stomp out elitism completely?

  • 11.29.2006 2:34 PM PDT

~Silent Avenger~

I will stand by and hold on to the only thing I know true The Assassins

I don't think that the main problem is elitism but immaturity which make people do these things. In a forum such as this: http://www.compsci.ca/v2/index.php there is rarely a case of elitism, although most of the forum is made up of university and high school students. Most of the people here act immaturely (I'm not saying all). But they would think it's fun to do things such as elitism when it actually isn't fun for others.

It would be nice to have a ranking system in which the moderators can give or take a certain amount of points based on a member's helpfulness or knowledge in his/her posts and the more points you have the higher the rank you have. I wouldn't mind this system (if no one would take advantage of it) and that way new people to these forums asking for help or looking for suggestions would know who to trust more.
But I still like the way the Bungie is set up and I don't really think a ranking system is absolutely needed.

  • 11.29.2006 2:53 PM PDT
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I always thought something along the lines of a karma system would be fun. Maybe everyone could get "points" for being a helpful member/making good topics/making good posts and after a lot of posts you get a special rank and the ability to upload an unique avatar.

Of course the point amounts for that would have to be extremely high (like 2 or 3 years of being a good member) and posts in the Flood wouldn't count (so people wouldn't get rewarded for acting like a moron).

I've seen dozens of places that turn off post counts/karma systems in the off topic areas, so I know it's probably been considered.

[Edited on 11/29/2006]

  • 11.29.2006 3:02 PM PDT

It was a cold day near the southern base in Blood Gulch. Cortana and I were relaxing over a game of Go Fish, WHEN OUT OF NO WHERE 700 BANSHEES CAME FLYING IN!!! I GRABED MY SPARTAN LASER AND LET HELL REIGN DOWN UPON THEM. I HOPPED IN THE NEAREST WARTHOG AND TOLD CORTANA TO GET IN.

Posted by: Mabian
Posted by: Pink Menace
Posted by: Mabian
Quick question Pink: Is elitism fine so long as it is tacit?

That depends on the situation. There is no balck and white answer, only shades of grey. Give me a situation and I'll tell you though =]


Well, as I already said, you don't need to actually perform a certain action in order to be an elitist. You do not have to necessarily act like you are better, but simply think you're better.

So I'm sure that you would definitely agree with me in saying that acting as though you are better than other people is bad. That's our explicit elitism. Member A has a higher rank than Member B, so Member A boasts (and, eventually, gets banned).

Now what about implicit elitism? Sure, there are no problems between people, but isn't it best to stomp out elitism completely?

I don't think so. Why not stomp out individuality, too? If I think I'm better then you and I don't show it it's my own business.

  • 11.29.2006 3:13 PM PDT
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I have no way to physically provide you with prove but my example is the "post count" that came with this new forum when it originally arrived. There was SPAM like you would not believe and then those who spammed to get a high post count acted as though they had earned through hard work. They acted as though they were above everyone because they had more posts.

I can see how it would work. Don't get me wrong, I am all for the idea, but I really do believe that it would be a problem UNLESS, the ranks were not obtained by post count and were given out to quality members by either the Moderators or the Bungie.net Community Team.

Then, those who did earn the ranks would be worthy of their rank. The only problem I see with "elitism" is if the ranks were obtain by preforming a certain amount of actions.

I'm sorry, I should have clarified in the first post. Again, my apologies.

-Akjak

  • 11.29.2006 3:19 PM PDT

It was a cold day near the southern base in Blood Gulch. Cortana and I were relaxing over a game of Go Fish, WHEN OUT OF NO WHERE 700 BANSHEES CAME FLYING IN!!! I GRABED MY SPARTAN LASER AND LET HELL REIGN DOWN UPON THEM. I HOPPED IN THE NEAREST WARTHOG AND TOLD CORTANA TO GET IN.

Posted by: AkJak
I have no way to physically provide you with prove but my example is the "post count" that came with this new forum when it originally arrived. There was SPAM like you would not believe and then those who spammed to get a high post count acted as though they had earned through hard work. They acted as though they were above everyone because they had more posts.

I can see how it would work. Don't get me wrong, I am all for the idea, but I really do believe that it would be a problem UNLESS, the ranks were not obtained by post count and were given out to quality members by either the Moderators or the Bungie.net Community Team.

Then, those who did earn the ranks would be worthy of their rank. The only problem I see with "elitism" is if the ranks were obtain by preforming a certain amount of actions.

I'm sorry, I should have clarified in the first post. Again, my apologies.

-Akjak

I see. I was working off an assumption that a certain post Achronos made was common knowledge. That was my fault. In his post, Achronos stated that if a Karma-type system were implemented it would be controlled by the Moderators and would be given out by hand. I guess it was a miscommunication.

Also, that post I made showing that there was no evidence to certain arguments was not meant to be insulting or attacking. It was an observation I made. Sorry if anyone took it offensivel, but I don't know how else to phrase it =/

[Edited on 11/29/2006]

  • 11.29.2006 3:25 PM PDT
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I had not seen this post by Achronos. My apologies for being uninformed. And, none taken.

-Akjak

[Edited on 11/29/2006]

  • 11.29.2006 3:29 PM PDT
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Posted by: Pink Menace
I don't think so. Why not stomp out individuality, too? If I think I'm better then you and I don't show it it's my own business.


So your belief that you are better than me will never actually show? Never ever? Not even when a system nurtures that belief?

  • 11.29.2006 3:57 PM PDT

It was a cold day near the southern base in Blood Gulch. Cortana and I were relaxing over a game of Go Fish, WHEN OUT OF NO WHERE 700 BANSHEES CAME FLYING IN!!! I GRABED MY SPARTAN LASER AND LET HELL REIGN DOWN UPON THEM. I HOPPED IN THE NEAREST WARTHOG AND TOLD CORTANA TO GET IN.

Posted by: Mabian
Posted by: Pink Menace
I don't think so. Why not stomp out individuality, too? If I think I'm better then you and I don't show it it's my own business.


So your belief that you are better than me will never actually show? Never ever? Not even when a system nurtures that belief?

Well if it showed it wouldn't be "tacit", and it becomes wrong. The standards I hold myself to are my own business. Are you saying that Bungie.net should try and regulate my mind? Because I'd certainly have the place be overrun with elitist, racist jerks then be brainwashed O.O

And who's to say that I'll be given rank? Mabye others being a higher rank will finally show me that I'm not the best, thus reducing elitism. There are too many unknowns in this situation. It's completely unpredictable.

[Edited on 11/29/2006]

  • 11.29.2006 5:45 PM PDT

$x='print chr(36),"x=",chr(39),$x,chr(39),";\n",$x; ';
print chr(36),"x=",chr(39),$x,chr(39),";\n",$x;

I work at Microsoft. I have nothing to do with Halo and nothing I say is "the official word".

Posted by: AkJak
Again, the problem comes in the form of elitism. People would rub their higher ranks in others faces.

Also, regulars members would want to be higher ranks and would start all kinds of messes. It's not worth it. But good suggestion.

-Akjak

Yeah, the occasional "Can I become a moderator?" threads are bad enough

  • 11.29.2006 6:04 PM PDT

It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier, not the lawyer, who has given us the right to a fair trial. And it is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves the flag, whose coffin is draped in the flag that allows the protester to burn the flag.Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC

My 2 cents on the theme master argument.


The Theme masters are very fiew in number and out of the fiew only a some are active.

And of course has whole there wouldnt be a problem, but still alot of people be jerks about.
Enough people here are immature enough to make it a problem.

And does anyone remember the time a private forum was suggested?

Ill see if i can find it on search feature.


EDIT

http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=5117738&po stRepeater1-p=1

In this thread a an idea for a private forum for the "good" members was brought up. The elitiest argument was used mainly by me lol, but anyways its a good reference.

I was such a noob back then.

[Edited on 11/29/2006]

  • 11.29.2006 6:10 PM PDT

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