Halo 1 & 2 for PC
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Subject: Everyone here who intends to make maps for H2 Vista are in for a su...
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I bet y'all can't wait to make maps wend H2 Vista comes out, huh?

From the Halo 2 FAQ

Why doesn’t the toolkit include a 3D modeler or texture editor?

There are several extremely good 3D modeling and artistic programs on the market, including some available at no cost. Bungie itself uses third-party tools for modeling and texture creation.

Now, personally, I think that this is a very questionable decsion. As far as I can tell, there are very few modlers here, so let me explain why :

The more mianstream 3D apps cost anywheree from $2,000 to 16,000. Bungie is fooling itself if they thik that anyone of us would be willink to fork out that much money.

Of course, there are free packages out there. The one that I highly suspect they are referring to is Blender. Yeah, it's free and it has an incredible, feature packed rendering engine, but here's the catch. he interface is FREAKING INCOMPREHENSIBLE. I mean, it'll take someone anywhere near 2 months to learn it. Here's a screen shot of the mess :

http://www.bretschneidernet.de/images/blender.png

Please, note that quite a few of those buttons open up submenus or change the whole layout to a new set of 100 buttons (wheeee.)

The solution? Supprt for Wings 3D
www.wings3d.com.
Wings is the easiest 3D app to learn IN EXISTENCE.



Also, textures aren't very easy to create so perhaps the H2 editing kit should include a couple dozen for us to use?







Another thing is that there are some things that are unadressed in the "customization" section of the FAQ :

1) Materials. Which one of the tools let's us set materials? That's right, procedural materials. For all you newbies out there, this is what makes you're level look all shiny and fancy. I would like to see the following properties/channels supported :

* Diffuse
* Specular
* Emmisive
* Caustics (this is a rather general, all inclusive term so let's just go with photon mapping)
* Irradescent.
* Light refraction.
* Transparency.
* Normal map.
* Fresnels


2) Lighting. I'de like to see the following light sources supported (each, of course, with numerous adjustable properties like color, strength, etc) :
-Ambient light
-Light cone
-Photon light (used with caustics)

  • 01.11.2007 8:42 PM PDT
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Maw

:'(

  • 01.11.2007 8:51 PM PDT
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Jeez, you think Bungie has to create a 3d modelling program for us as well? Do you want them to gift wrap it too?

Be happy with what you get.

  • 01.11.2007 9:03 PM PDT
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I happen to have 3ds Max, but couldn't people always use Gmax? It supports all of those things I think (except for rendering, which needs a script).

  • 01.11.2007 9:04 PM PDT
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seriously at least we are gonna get tools to mod with.

  • 01.11.2007 9:18 PM PDT
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Maw

They made it sound like it was going to be some supercool program that could do everything HEK could and more, but now its starting to sound like a Halo 2 version of Halo PC and CE combined.

  • 01.11.2007 9:21 PM PDT
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It's kind of hard to "be happy" if we have to choose between spending $2,000 or spending 2 months learning you're way around the blender interface.

What I suggested is that they make the HEK compatible with wings 3D, which is good because any one wil be able to start mapping for Halo 2 Vista.

  • 01.11.2007 9:42 PM PDT
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I still think that Gmax would be better, it's the closest thing to 3ds that doesn't cost $3,500... many of the tutorials made for 3ds Max are semi if not fully applicable to Gmax as well.

  • 01.11.2007 10:05 PM PDT
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Download Halo Custom Edition for user created maps!
Link
http://hce.halomaps.org/index.cfm?pg=3&fid=410
The few, the proud, the leet.

oh heaven forbid we have to use a third party tool. however did CE survive???

*faints*




edit:
he interface is FREAKING INCOMPREHENSIBLE.
I understand more than half of it and I've never used the app before.

modeling isn't like going out to the beach and making a sand castle or playing with legos. In the least, it requires a prerequisite knowledge of basic modeling technique and tool usage; even more so if you want to produce content in something such as a game engine.

[Edited on 1/11/2007]

  • 01.11.2007 10:10 PM PDT
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Yes, I am a hypocrite, and I'm sorry. I really do mean well, but I'm not running on all cylinders.

Everytime someone buys a copy of Halo 2 Vista, a puppy dies.

Wings3D would be a great idea. Too bad Bungie never listens.

  • 01.11.2007 11:04 PM PDT
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I got the Photoshop trial for textures, and I can hopefully make sence of Blender, the cost of 3DS is too much, but specular lighting, cubemapping and basicly everything under Materials will be a pain. Cmon, Bungie using Blender? They said in one of the updates on the front page they used 3DS, I just can't picture them using Blender.

  • 01.11.2007 11:12 PM PDT
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You guys didn't know they were going to make us buy our own 3D modelling program again? Might be something to add to the FAQ...

[Edited on 1/12/2007]

  • 01.12.2007 2:31 AM PDT
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Seriously, how many other companies have packaged a 3d modelling program with thier games? What's that you say? None? Well. There you go.

Stop looking for reasons to bash Halo2V and Bungie. This is getting more and more rediculious. You think Bungie has to hand you everything on a silver platter with roses and tulips adorning it?

I've been playing video games of all kinds for nigh on 20 years. And I've seen games released with modding tools. I've seen games released with a level editor. But never once have I seen a game packaged with it's own 3d Modelling program. So maybe you people should pull your heads out of your asses for once and accept the fact that 3D modelling programs aren't cheap, and the ones that are usually aren't the most user friendly. And Bungie's not going to waste thier time packaging a 3d Modelling program that most likely cost them a lot of money so that you ungrateful whelps can have your cake!

  • 01.12.2007 8:47 AM PDT
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Last time I checked neither the Unreal Editing tools or the Source/Half-Life 2 editing tools or the Quake editing tools come with a 3D modeling program included.

I would say its a proper map/level editior that the HEK desperately needs, similar to what Unreal has with UnrealEd and Source has with the Hammer Editor.

Appologys If i've got things wrong, as im newbie on this subject.

  • 01.12.2007 9:14 AM PDT

Get Marathon Here
Get Marathon 2 and Infinity Here

Didn't they say that there would be many more tools, and basically, that the H2EK would be far better than the HEK?

As long as that's the case that is good enough for me.

But dude, you complain about complexity of Blender, I took one look at that screenshot and it looked darn straight forward to me. How do you manage to navigate B.net, let alone 3dSMax?

[Edited on 1/12/2007]

  • 01.12.2007 11:10 AM PDT

-S

Posted by: Cwagle
Last time I checked neither the Unreal Editing tools or the Source/Half-Life 2 editing tools or the Quake editing tools come with a 3D modeling program included.

I would say its a proper map/level editior that the HEK desperately needs, similar to what Unreal has with UnrealEd and Source has with the Hammer Editor.

Appologys If i've got things wrong, as im newbie on this subject.


UnrealEd comes with Maya Personal Learning Edition. Maya PLE is a free download available from Autodesk's website.

Source works with SoftImage XSI, with the inclusion of some special designed-for-HL2 extras. Trial and modder versions of XSI can be downloaded from SoftImage's website.

Quake engine/Doom engine levels are constructed with in-house tools, which are included with the software or made available for download later.

Bungie used 3d Studio Max for level development in Halo 2. There is not currently a supported freeware version of Max software (Discreet dropped support of gMax about a year or so before they were acquired by Autodesk, and Autodesk has shown no interest in ressurecting the software).

The moral of the story is not to get your panties in a bunch. There's actually a plethora of decent 3d applications out there (Wings was a good example). As far as obstacles come in the history of custom game content, this one is practically non existant.

  • 01.12.2007 11:29 AM PDT
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Posted by: Anton P Nym
who says you have to be an ace to have fun?

Posted by: TUI_Obi_Wan
Stupid parents let their stupid children play games that are rated M when they should be playing Big Birds Spelling Adventures

Posted by: Kira Onime
Also the AR is actually good in CQB now and no longer a glorified baseball bat.

I'm pretty sure there are some places on the net that still have gmax available for download.

You could probably find it by looking around on Google.

  • 01.12.2007 11:41 AM PDT

Join the MAW Clan
X-fire username:Iggwilv
My Real Avatar

Shishka? You have been demoted? What is a "Certain Affinity Guy"?

  • 01.12.2007 11:43 AM PDT
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Hmm, I just noticed as well that he doesn't have the white text of a ninja. Although I'm sure he could still ban our asses back to the stoneage if he wanted too.

  • 01.12.2007 11:51 AM PDT
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You haven't read the news lately have you igg? Certain Affinity is kinda an offshoot of bungie. Separate company though. Anyway, I don't think the topic started understands how Halo's engine works. Procedural textures aren't used (I don't think you actually wanted to say procedural). Guerilla sets all those things. Caustics aren't supported, they are way to taxing to have in a 2 year old xbox engine. Not sure what you mean by emmisive, and if you mean self illuminating by irridescent then yes, it is included. Refraction I doubt it for the same reason as caustics but its more of a possibility than caustics.

Lighting if done the same as in Halo1 is texture based. The texture emits light. I don't know how halo 2's lighting works though, but spot and omni lights are probably how it would be done if its not the same, along with general sky (ambient) lighting.

  • 01.12.2007 12:22 PM PDT
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Guys just wait n see when we get the game n then you can decide what to write about the map editor.

  • 01.12.2007 1:01 PM PDT
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But dude, you complain about complexity of Blender, I took one look at that screenshot and it looked darn straight forward to me. How do you manage to navigate B.net, let alone 3dSMax?
Are you joking? OK, let's see you make something with Blender.

Seriously, how many other companies have packaged a 3d modelling program with thier games? What's that you say? None? Well. There you go.
Actually, many editors are capable of creating level gemotery :
-Chaser
-FEAR
-HL2 (Hammer)
-MANY others

I think you're mixing up props and level geometry. Props are usually (and should) be created with a seperate app.


Stop looking for reasons to bash Halo2V and Bungie. This is getting more and more rediculious. You think Bungie has to hand you everything on a silver platter with roses and tulips adorning it?
*sigh*

Have you ever heard of feedback?


I've been playing video games of all kinds for nigh on 20 years. And I've seen games released with modding tools. I've seen games released with a level editor. But never once have I seen a game packaged with it's own 3d Modelling program. So maybe you people should pull your heads out of your asses for once and accept the fact that 3D modelling programs aren't cheap, and the ones that are usually aren't the most user friendly. And Bungie's not going to waste thier time packaging a 3d Modelling program that most likely cost them a lot of money so that you ungrateful whelps can have your cake!
Do you have any clue how ignorant that sounded?

First off, it's about a 50/50 split. Some editors require you to import level geometry and some can let you create it.

Play something besides the Halo PC demo.

I was the one who said that 3D modelers aren't cheap, but there is one good free one that I mentioned in my first post.



Please. Stop acting like an expert when you clearly aren't. I'm a modeler. You aren't, which means I'm more qualified to discuss the subject than you.

  • 01.12.2007 2:52 PM PDT
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I may not be an expert (I never said i was dumbass), but I've been around a lot longer than you. So I like to think I have somewhat of a clue. So you're a modeller eh? Does that make you an expert?

I find your post to be the most ignorant piece of garbago I've ever had the misfortune of reading. What you posted earlier wasn't "feedback" it's just a load of gripeing.

Oh and please, in the future, don't bother trying to mask a flame post as an intelligent contribution to the discussion. I can see right through your BS.

  • 01.12.2007 3:21 PM PDT
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The problem with using wings is that its a sub-d program. You can't have single polygons and the way halo's maps are made isn't possible with wings.

  • 01.12.2007 4:43 PM PDT
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I never got into modeling or mapmaking. But I do enjoy the occasional skinning. And even then I would only need my trusty Gimp and a new HMT. The tools we get is a lot better than what we had...

  • 01.12.2007 4:46 PM PDT

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