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  • Subject: Will Halo 2 Vista fall under the Windows Vista DRM?
Subject: Will Halo 2 Vista fall under the Windows Vista DRM?

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Basically, in Windows Vista, they are making everyone who may handle "premium content" (Aka, the graphics card, the motherboard, the sound card, the CD or DVD player, the monitor, the drivers, and the playback software) to include encryption software to encrypt said "premium content" when it is sent over a "user accessable bus" Which means if you want to play music that's on your hard drive, it must go through the bus that handles hard drives, but as you can access that (meaning you can stick wires onto the motherboard contacts and steal the signal), it must first be encrypted, before it gets to the processor, which un-encrypts it, and then encrypits it again, to be sent over the unscure PCI bus, which must then be un-encrypted by the sound card. And, all that software and hardware must be Vista DRM compliant.

To verify that the software and hardware is secure, every 30 miliseconds, Vista sends a signal to every device and driver to make sure that it still is a secure device or driver, if it is being used or not.

Basically it's like running a deep virus scan, all the time, that runs all your drivers, at the same time.

Oh, and if your using an unsecure driver or piece of software, there are two outcomes: The quality of the playback, be it music or video, gets degraded, so an HDDVD would only play at normal DVD quality (we hope, it may be worse, there are murmers of fuzzy images and audio, which I consider less than DVD quality). Or, Vista will just shut down the device or driver. Permanently, until you aquire another user licence.

Making your computer unuseable.


Which means, every part of your machine must be compliant with the Windows Vista DRM, even the monitor.


Sounds fun huh?

So my question is, will Halo 2 Vista be considered "premium content"?

If this is the case, then sorry guys, but we will have to wait a few more months to even start seeing computers that are fully compliant with the Vista DRM, as there is not one graphics card that is compliant out today.

Which means we will have to buy brand new computer systems in order to play H2V.

And thats if you only want to play H2V. Even if H2V isn't "premium content", how many of you intend on watching HDDVD's or Blu-Ray's from your computer? Or listening to music?

If the entertainment industry declares something as "premium content" guess what? Won't play unless you buy a new computer.

This is a Bungie issue and a H2V issue as unless Microsoft ditches this bull-blam!- DRM, I am not getting Vista, or H2V.

And I won't be getting any more Bungie products until they either ditch Microsoft for forcing this crap on us, or I find out that the Vista DRM isn't as -blam!- up as it appears to be.

And don't mention the degredation to gameplay having this DRM check runing in the background will do.

[Edited on 1/17/2007]

  • 01.17.2007 7:10 AM PDT
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i'm lost

  • 01.17.2007 7:26 AM PDT
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Posted by: Synthmilk
Basically, in Windows Vista, they are making everyone who may handle "premium content" (Aka, the graphics card, the motherboard, the sound card, the CD or DVD player, the monitor, the drivers, and the playback software) to include encryption software to encrypt said "premium content" when it is sent over a "user accessable bus" Which means if you want to play music that's on your hard drive, it must go through the bus that handles hard drives, but as you can access that (meaning you can stick wires onto the motherboard contacts and steal the signal), it must first be encrypted, before it gets to the processor, which un-encrypts it, and then encrypits it again, to be sent over the unscure PCI bus, which must then be un-encrypted by the sound card. And, all that software and hardware must be Vista DRM compliant.


From what I've heard, this is only for DVD playback with greater than 480p resolution (aka HD, or Bluray). This isn't really too much of a problem yet, as not many people have $1000 players.

I wouldn't worry about it.

  • 01.17.2007 7:46 AM PDT

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Posted by: Master A10
i'm lost


You have "premium content" aka an HDDVD or sumsuch.

To play it, your HDDVD player, your motherboard, your sound card, your graphics card, your monitor, and the drivers for each of those things, must comply with the Windows Vista DRM.

If even one of those does not comply, then instead of seeing the video and hearing the audio in its HD glory, you will get standard DVD quality.

Apparently non "premium content" will play just fine, but we don't know how Vista will decide what is "premium content". For all we know, current DVD's and CD's are already flagged as "premium content", and Win XP just doesn't do anything about it.

Posted by: snowysnowcones
From what I've heard, this is only for DVD playback with greater than 480p resolution (aka HD, or Bluray). This isn't really too much of a problem yet, as not many people have $1000 players.

I wouldn't worry about it.


Yea, well it isn't Microsoft that is declaring what is "premium content", it's the entertainment industry, Microsoft is just doing what the almighty entertainment industry says, as it doesn't want to risk being left out should Hollywood say "Windows isn't safe enough for our precious movies, the hackers may steals our movies and send them over the internets, you can't have them!"

Which would kill the whole Microsoft dream of a home entertainment system with a Windows PC running the show.

[Edited on 1/17/2007]

  • 01.17.2007 7:46 AM PDT

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Sry, double post.

[Edited on 1/17/2007]

  • 01.17.2007 7:51 AM PDT
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Posted by: snowysnowcones
From what I've heard, this is only for DVD playback with greater than 480p resolution (aka HD, or Bluray). This isn't really too much of a problem yet, as not many people have $1000 players.

I wouldn't worry about it. [/quote]

Yea, well it isn't Microsoft that is declaring what is "premium content", it's the entertainment industry, Microsoft is just doing what the almighty entertainment industry says, as it doesn't want to risk being left out should Hollywood say "Windows isn't safe enough for our precious movies, the hackers may steals our movies and send them over the internets, you can't have them!"

Which would kill the whole Microsoft dream of a home entertainment system with a Windows PC running the show.

I'm pretty sure its only DVD's in HD/Blu Ray... not video games

  • 01.17.2007 8:00 AM PDT

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Maybe not all, but any that have entertainment industry fingers in them will likely be.

And we never know about Microsoft.

  • 01.17.2007 9:00 AM PDT
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That sounds a bit exaggerated, but I'll wait and see.

  • 01.17.2007 9:04 AM PDT
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I think you are blowing it out of porportion. There is no way the industry will tell Microsoft windows isn't secure enough, therefore they won't let them play movies or music. That would be a stupid mistake to make. I don't think you have all the facts. I don't have any facts though, this is the first time I've heard of this and I think that just shows its not a big deal.

  • 01.17.2007 12:07 PM PDT

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Just because you haven't heard of something doesn't make it a big deal.

And yes, the entertainment industry can shut out Microsoft, they hate the internet already, and most of their sales come from people buying for their home theater system, not their PC.

I just don't want Microsoft to take advantage of this and start making their products fall under this DRM to cut down on game piracy.

  • 01.17.2007 12:53 PM PDT
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Sorry, but I've gotta agree with Chewy here.

My apologies, but I mostly skimmed over your whole DRM spiel (sorry!), and I just need to get this word out.

I do empathize with your hate of all things DRM. It's like putting up a straw fence to keep crows out. Pisses the average consumer by putting up restrictions and does nothing to stop the determined pirate from putting it into Teh Intarweb for download.

Either way, however, the DRM will not be so restrictive as to limit the playback of games and movies. Just think about the logistics of what you're saying. If you were in M$'s shoes, would you honestly think every consumer is going to run out there and buy a new computer/DVD Drive just to play a 3 year old Xbox port? How would you sell Vista, much less H2V?

EDIT: Oh, and I'd also like a linky or two please? I have, quite honestly, never heard of this sort of situation until now and am more than a bit dubious about it's reality. Sorry, but it's true.

[Edited on 1/17/2007]

  • 01.17.2007 1:17 PM PDT

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Just google "Windows Vista DRM"

But This Is a good summary with sources.

  • 01.17.2007 1:50 PM PDT
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If I haven't heard about it, then it probably means that the big wig hardware/software reviewers don't think its that much of a big deal. First of all, I think this is mostly for cd's dvd's hddvd's and blueray as those are (or will be) the most common types of media that is pirated. Games are not nearly pirated as much, or in the same way. The media industry wouldn't dare take out computers running their media. Not at all. People store there collections on hard drives, they buy their music online, they burn cds with the songs they want. The rip then put the songs on their mp3 players. Its a huge chunk of their consumers that they would be alienating.
Also, as was stated, this is a significant hit on system performance. Games need all the performance they can get and if microsoft or any other developer uses this, people will be pissed. Like that crap about the copy protection breaking the game x10000 pissed.

If you are really that worried, just remember that vista will be hacked the day it comes out (in fact I bet its already possible to get around most if not all of it)

  • 01.17.2007 3:21 PM PDT
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I repeat, sing along with me, I run the streets the streets don't run me.

No.

  • 01.17.2007 4:07 PM PDT
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I doubt it would be that extenesive for Halo 2PC and someone already mentioned it would only be for HD movies which I think is correct. Even if such DRM schemes were in place, they always get broken one way or another.

  • 01.17.2007 4:10 PM PDT
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Okay, I've done a bit more research on the topic, and most of what I've found doesn't exactly support what you've said.

This whole DRM thing is tricky stuff...I found that more than nine times out of ten, most articles used a whole bunch of mumbo-jumbo technical stuff that they likely didn't even understand themselves. Terms like HDCP, DVI, OTA, HDDVD, CCCP, OMG and WTF were thrown around a lot.

Anyways, you're mostly accurate about the whole High Definition thing when it comes to movies. I'm not entirely sure if the process you detailed is the method Vista will use when it comes to High Def video playback on Legacy monitors, but in general, the Hi Def video will run through some sort of restrictor that will purposely degrade the quality if it will be played through a monitor that doesn't support HDCP. I didn't find any reports that mentioned the functionality of the monitor would be disabled (permanently or not) aside from the one you linked to.

Current DVDs and CDs, since they are not high definition, are not going to be affected by the Vista high-def playback encryption technology. Locally stored videos will also go unaffected, unless they are DRM-encrypted high definition. This is an issue that will affect only the next generation of high-definition media.

Building upon that, I honestly think you're looking a bit too far into the future. Everyone's talking hi def blurays and ubergargantuansuperDVDs, but it takes quite a while for any given next generation format to catch on to the main market. This means, in other words, that High Definition will be the almost exclusive realm of enthusiasts and connoisseurs. In short, you wouldn't have to worry about all this sort of stuff until about two or so years from now, by which time you'll more than likely have gotten a new computer with all this schtuff worked out beforehand. Most, if not all DVDs released within the next...oh...I would say 3-5 years or so will still be standard definition DVDs playable on technology today.

However, I have reason to believe that this has little if anything to do with playing video games on next generation PCs.

...that's mostly it. I mean, I have heard nothing that supports claims that video games will come with the same sort of restrictions on playback...after all, logically, you're not exactly playing anything back.

The root of the matter can be explained as thus: this Vista HDCP protects and encrypts material so that it can't be stolen while in transit through various parts of the computer. Some DVD rippers are known to work that way, essentially playing the DVD back and grabbing the unencrypted file off of the RAM as it comes. However, this won't work the same way with video games, by nature of it being far more complex than movie playback. Simple logic, therefore, will prove that this whole fuss is, for the gamer, nothing to worry about.

  • 01.17.2007 6:02 PM PDT
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the claim that "no current grahic card supports HDCP" is also inaccurate. the 8800 cards, which are blatantly labelled as "made for windows vista" are HDCP, and i'm assuming the 8600 and 8300 cards will follow suit, as they're scheduled for release in march.

also, there are many hdcp-compliant monitors available now. i know samsung makes a fair number, so does dell and LG.

the quality of DRM encrypted material on non-hdcp hardware remains largely unknown and probably varies greatly based on the hardware in question, drivers, etc. either way i'm not really concerned as i don't plan on spending $500+ on a HD/blu-ray dvd player just so i can watch it on my ~20" monitor.

yes, vista is going to be locked down a lil tighter than XP, but as others have mentioned, you have blown this way out of proportion.

  • 01.17.2007 6:37 PM PDT
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When it said 800x600 I believe they mean that size video format, almost all DVDs use lower resolutions then that and the examples they give are poor, youtube has very low quality videos no where near the amount they say. It also makes me think about the Save the Internet campaign going on, people have a right to edit their computers as they see fit, people could easily trick a scan into think a flashdrive is all the media you have and let you change the rest of it.

  • 01.17.2007 6:38 PM PDT
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It's just a sure fire way of making sure DRM is nulled in Vista anyway by some community, then it's sorted for the next 7 or 8 years.

  • 01.18.2007 2:12 AM PDT
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Yes, I am a hypocrite, and I'm sorry. I really do mean well, but I'm not running on all cylinders.

Everytime someone buys a copy of Halo 2 Vista, a puppy dies.

Polling every 30 seconds won't hurt gameplay, I don't think. Anyone with any self-respect should know that being treated like a criminal by crappy DRM is stupid. I'll keep using XP until Microsoft finds some seedy way to force me out of it. By that time there should be enough quality FPS games for GNU/Linux and I won't look back.

  • 01.18.2007 3:00 AM PDT

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Posted by: n357
Polling every 30 seconds won't hurt gameplay, I don't think. Anyone with any self-respect should know that being treated like a criminal by crappy DRM is stupid. I'll keep using XP until Microsoft finds some seedy way to force me out of it. By that time there should be enough quality FPS games for GNU/Linux and I won't look back.


I will admit that the likelyhood of games to fall under this DRM directly is minimal, but not impossible, game piracy is a high priority for Microsoft.

However, this polling of the various hardware and drivers happens 30 times per second, not every 30 seconds, and yes Vista is heavily multi-threaded, and next gen hardware is far faster than anything we have seen thus far, but what kind of sacrafice are we talking here for the "minimum" systems that can use Vista? I'm not going to go and drop 4 thousand bucks on a premium processor, RAM, mobo, graphics card and sound card. My next computer system will be 2000 at most and that's includeing taxes and shipping, that can hardly get me top of the line next gen hardware, I would be lucky to get a mid range graphics card and processor, let alone a sound card or monitor.

I would rather be wary, than dissapointed, is where I am comming from. Microsoft has pulled this kind of stuff before, and while I am all for Microsoft, when giants misstep, it's us little guys that get crushed.

  • 01.18.2007 6:20 AM PDT
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Right, but again, it doesn't make any sort of sense whatsoever for Microsoft to use an encryption similar to HDCP for games. Just think about what they will need to do.

Secondly, again, no offense, but you're also overplaying the whole "required to run vista" thing. I know people who have gotten Aero going lag-free on a setup similar to mine (AMD Turion 64 1.8GHz, ATI Integrated 400MHz, 512 RAM). Finally, keep in mind that Vista Premium with Aero needs to be flexible enough to run on laptops as well as desktops, despite their less-than-powerful processors and integrated GPUs. No software company in any state of mind (crazy, money-hungry, monopolistic or not) would make an OS that couldn't run without problems on a majority of current-gen laptops.

My computer cost me about 900 bucks, and that was one year ago. If you consider a good computer to cost you 2000 bucks, you're either getting horribly mislead or ripped off. You can get a really good computer at about 1300 from OEMs (even cheaper if you do your research, shopping, and know where to look), a setup that comes with all the bells and whistles (flatscreen monitor in sizes =/+15" given). If the God Box you want costs 2000 bucks, however, you should seriously consider building your own. Not only will that help enrich your knowledge about computers and such, but you could easily build your own with just as good if not better specs than the 2k-buck-box for half the cost or even lower.

[Edited on 1/18/2007]

  • 01.18.2007 12:53 PM PDT

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The Vista beta comes with the full DRM software?

Interesting, perhaps Vista is a lot more efficient than I had hoped.

But how hard would it be for Microsoft to piggyback on HDCP and if your not running Microsoft certified hardware or drivers, your game won't install?

Now this may be assuming they are truely evil, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.

As I said, I would rather be wary than sorry.

  • 01.18.2007 1:37 PM PDT