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Subject: Thoughts on community interaction and how it's changed.

If you don't got it, you want it. If you got it, you want more of it. Of course if you don't know what it is, it's hard to get any in the first place.

EDIT: The Second Page has some astoundingly insightful comments from Anton, as well as new ideas being discussed, and logic holes in my first 2 posts. Please read the entire thread before going in there with a torch and Claymore. Thank you.

Alright, might as well explain what this is about. I think just about anyone could tell me that Bungie has changed over the years. It's gone from being a tiny business which consisted of a bunch of guys in a dusty old sludge filled basement of a ex-catholic school, to Studio who's very name exibits awe in the gaming world, and recieves special treatment from Microsoft.

However, one could argue that lots of comanies make good games. Just look at Blizzard, Id, Bioware, some of the teams in Ubisoft, etc. However, what's always elavated Bungie above the rest has been it's interaction with the fanCommunity. Where with other companies you sat there looking at the same frontpage of a website that never changed, wondering how development was going, Bungie was talking to you. They endoresed fan interaction, and that's what's made them so great.

However I think the tone of this interaction has undergone some significant changes over the last 5 years, and not neccessarily for the better.

First, I'd like to bring up Myth and Post-Myth Bungie, and the atmosphere of the fancommunity. By simply exploring Bungie and the fansites from that period, you see a completely different Bungie. Even if it's very subtle, the atmosphere it created still can be felt years after the websites are shut down. Just browsing around Bungie.Org, and Myth.Bungie.org on the internet wayback machine is depressing.

When Halo arrived, the community exploded. Just by watching the websites at the time, and observing the old T&R posts at the time shows an example of the Myth/ Oni communtiy atmosphere being imposed into the enviroment of the Halo immigrants- who began an almost teraforming like process. Bungie's traditional ways seemed to slowly drop as it had to handle the new community. The old members seem to have handled them fairly well, but eventually the atmosphere definetly changed, and thats where the basis of the "old-skooler" mentality first took root. Where Minotaur, PiD, Marathon Demo, (and later full version) players were the original old-skoolers, they were relegated to obscurity in the post Microsoft atmosphere.

However in the build up to Halo 2, that's where the biggest, and most drastic change happened. The New Hawtness wrecked the community in alot of ways it seems. Old-Chapters were messed up, and the interaction with Bungie through custom chapter design ( To show devotion to Bungie-ness.) seems to have dissapaited. As Halo 2 dragged on, more Halo immigrants arrived, and eventually the old-skoolers were outnumbered in a gross ratio. They brought with them an influx of 12 year olds, asshats, and trolls that to this day taint Bungie.net. God bless mass market appeal.

Meanwhile During the dev of Halo 1 & 2, we find out that they're crammed into a Redmond office on the MS campus, and forced to fight off the suits every other day. They have to work their buts off to remain independent of Microsoft cash whores, and prove to MS that they're worth the investment, and can make them Money. After Halo 1 & 2 they end up making so much money for MS in terms of Games, consoles, and XBl that they are given their own satellite building almost an hour from Redmond where they can be left alone, they make their own decisions, they don't kneel to stupid MS demands, and are given unpreccedented design freedom from MS. This is in part from new people at MS, old fogeys quitting, and the rest getting with the times of how the hell to run a proper game business.

Back when they first moved into redmond, they shoved Bungie into 8 foot cubicles in a cramped office. THeir communication broke down just like it was strained with the community. They had to tear down the cubicles before they became effective. That's why they moved into such a free flowing office.

Halo's mass market appeal brought a different kind of community interaction into the mix. Bungie couldn't be involved in the personal touch it used to. And as the community clamoured like a hungry beast for more info, they turned to a "episodic Content" approach almost like chapters in a book. Everyweek we got an update that sated hunger, but ultimately made us want more. Information on the forums was limited, and when we were given choice morsels, they ended up leaving a bitter after taste upon the comming of the main couse (IE The Halo 2 E3 Demo). By giving this appearance of an amazing, almost complete game, they were messing with the mentality of the community. They started work on Halo 2, but then took a great chunk of time to get things ready for E3, only to have half the work for E3 ultimately be not usuable. We thought things were fine and dandy, instead of understanding the running fight to finish the game that was going on.

Which is why they are doing things differently with Halo 3. First, we recieved NO halo 3 news for over a year and a half. They created a solid foundation for Halo 3, talked to the 360 hardware guys, etc. They planned out better than Halo 2, hired new people, moved offices, etc. EVerything they needed to make Halo 3 amazing.

When they showed Halo 3, they showed the Engine, and a teaser for the game. Nothing of true consequence. The teasers grow in boldness, as time has gone on, but it's maintained a much tamer, "We can take that back if we have to" attitude. Instead of showing you something that might give you the wrong impression. They've given us mini documentary's to help keep us feeling involved, and to show us that theyr'e hard at work without revealing anything critical. Remember the "wierd units" in the first documentary, and it seems those have turned out to be early Brute designs.

The weekly updates have taken on a much more "This week we talk about" role, more commentary on the forums, while refusing to give people fuel to start any sort of riot fires.

They've become more removed form the community, and instead have 3 guys handle all the major interaction, who are practically masters of misdirection. (I've talked to Frankie, Trufax)

Meanwhile, they have the community split up into the IRC bunch, the HBO Bunch, the Bungie.net community, with the regular users, the helpful community members, and then there are the bad parts of the B.net community with the spammers, flamers, illiterate jerks, and detrimental members of the website (B.net retards, you know who they are), and finally to end on a good note, the B.net Group community.

Note, This is all conjecture. I've done all of this from reading archives of dead sites, looking at long lost Bungie videos and interviews, checking out forgotten fansites, and all sorts of talks with ancient, near decrepit old-skoolers. This is me putting the pieces together, and seeing if they fit. I may very well be wrong about alot of this. I may very have written the most arrogant piece of trash ever.

[Edited on 1/29/2007]

  • 01.28.2007 12:04 PM PDT
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The Marty Army

Ah, look at the lonely people...

I agree on that the community is somewhat separated. But, what I dislike is that Frankie, KPaul, and the other community guys seem to spend more time on HBO's forums then their own. Granted, HBO's forumbase is a bit more... intelligent than the majority of the people here.

But, the thing about remaining removed because of Halo 3. I don't think that's nessesary. They can still talk to us and keep us updated without compromising the game. In my opinion, we'd all be a heck of a lot happier with even the smallest bit of more interaction. I mean, I can honestly say I'd be very very happy if, every week, we got a random image from Halo 3. Doesn't have to be anything major, either. Renders of Spartans standing on neutral backgrounds, renders of weapons, ect. All of that would make it feel as if they're more invovled with telling us about the development of Halo 3 while not compromising any piece of development.

I'm losing my train of thought here, though, so I'll stop. :P

  • 01.28.2007 12:12 PM PDT

Controlling fission events without incident since May, 2012.

Don't worry, be happy

Edit: I love the idea of random screenshots of the week, that would really cut the tension while waiting fo Halo 3, the fanboys could scrutinize the photos instead of making half-ass conspiracy threads

[Edited on 1/28/2007]

  • 01.28.2007 12:13 PM PDT
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News? Podcasts? Machinima? Active forums? Competitions? Jaffa Cakes!? OMG!
Thee Warriors!

Best. Mod. Ever.

True. Bungie has changed much over time, but overall I think for the beter.
It's sad to see some of the elements go, especially the chapters. No longer are they small closely joined people who are devout with a real passion. They are expansive media spolights to feed off. I still love them but they all lost something.
At the same time, I think it's good to change. I think that as a community we should embrace the newer generations and enjoy our time with them in whatever way we can. To do that would be to represent what we used to be like, and deeply, what we still are.

  • 01.28.2007 12:17 PM PDT
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The Marty Army

Ah, look at the lonely people...

Posted by: Ciaran
True. Bungie has changed much over time, but overall I think for the beter.
It's sad to see some of the elements go, especially the chapters. No longer are they small closely joined people who are devout with a real passion. They are expansive media spolights to feed off. I still love them but they all lost something.
At the same time, I think it's good to change. I think that as a community we should embrace the newer generations and enjoy our time with them in whatever way we can. To do that would be to represent what we used to be like, and deeply, what we still are.

I disagree. This sort of change is not for the better. Community interaction is key. I used to love the community spotlights and stuff like that. Surely there's someone at Bungie who can still do that. Hell, the community could even do it. I, for one, would jump at the chance to help Bungie interact with the community, even if it's just collecting community interviews or something.

  • 01.28.2007 12:20 PM PDT
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News? Podcasts? Machinima? Active forums? Competitions? Jaffa Cakes!? OMG!
Thee Warriors!

Best. Mod. Ever.

Posted by: WhiteRaven119
Posted by: Ciaran
True. Bungie has changed much over time, but overall I think for the beter.
It's sad to see some of the elements go, especially the chapters. No longer are they small closely joined people who are devout with a real passion. They are expansive media spolights to feed off. I still love them but they all lost something.
At the same time, I think it's good to change. I think that as a community we should embrace the newer generations and enjoy our time with them in whatever way we can. To do that would be to represent what we used to be like, and deeply, what we still are.

I disagree. This sort of change is not for the better. Community interaction is key. I used to love the community spotlights and stuff like that. Surely there's someone at Bungie who can still do that. Hell, the community could even do it. I, for one, would jump at the chance to help Bungie interact with the community, even if it's just collecting community interviews or something.


Perhaps I'm misunderstood. I don't like how things differ from then and now, but I'm trying to say that we should stay positive and make the best of what we have and improve upon it. In the end, though the contributions of KP and Frankie have large effects, it is a community place and therfore it can be viewed as our domain, and becasue of this, our responsibility too.

  • 01.28.2007 12:26 PM PDT

Controlling fission events without incident since May, 2012.

Seeing as I've only been here for.. 4 months? Something like that, anyways I hear a lot of talk about old options that Bnet used to have or about the older sites, personally, I wish I could I have been there since I feel sort of left out in a way. I'd like to see some of the higher ups in the Bnet community have the chance to help out and bring those back.

  • 01.28.2007 12:29 PM PDT

Trailer Park Boys ~ One of the best Canadian made comedies ever.

I think Bungie has declined slightly in community involvement over the years, but still are way ahead of others. The major reason is because their huge success in the Halo series and how much more busy they are becoming.

They still give out weekly updates every Friday by the same person, Frankie. Through all of them, Bungie still delivers their unique sense of style, humor. Most other companies are serious and always deliver the same concrete tone every every time, making them not stand out like Bungie does.

Bungie still manages to always deliver community spotlights, weekly updates, and forum posts. I prefer that they stay on their present course because they're doing a good job with community involvement.


[Edited on 1/28/2007]

  • 01.28.2007 1:06 PM PDT
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Bungie listens to its fans! ^.^ | Ninja .II./ You
RCG: In ur base, steelin' ur flagz. | Watch the demo, then join the carnage!

Posted by: RoboChocobo
Meanwhile, they have the community split up into the IRC bunch, the HBO Bunch, the B.net retards, and the B.net Group community.

I'm a member of 2 and a half of those... And probably a "B.net retard" as well. =/

I also see alot of cross-over, so I would certainly not say the community is split so cleanly as you imply. From Bungie itself there's less interaction than earlier years but that's what comes with a bigger community, unfortunately.

I like to think some of the old schoolers are... hibernating in groups etc. and will return after the influx of "B.net retards" has receded to reclaim the forums. =)

[Edited on 1/28/2007]

  • 01.28.2007 1:29 PM PDT
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  • Elder Mythic Member

Bungie employees regularly post on hbo still, and some hang out in the IRC (and i hear they read and post here more often that we think)

Posted by: RoboChocobo
Meanwhile, they have the community split up into the IRC bunch, the HBO Bunch, the B.net retards, and the B.net Group community.


+high impact halo / high speed halo and their split offs, all the "old gamer" sites (2old2play ect) the MLG crowd, the sprawling machinima community, probably a bunch more too.

(edit - but who says thats a bad thing, at all ? on big forum of ALL of these poeple yelling at once to be heard would suck.)

and generalising the Bnet community as retards isnt nice, there are some good posters on the forum. Just pass the threads which are all caps.



[Edited on 1/28/2007]

  • 01.28.2007 1:35 PM PDT

Devil is Double is Deuce and Joker always trumps Deuce.

Posted by: Gendo
and generalising the Bnet community as retards isnt nice, there are some good posters in the groups. Just pass the threads which are all caps.

Fixed.

  • 01.28.2007 1:43 PM PDT

Ach! Was ist los?

The community section is not what it once was. The Webmaster is AWOL. The comics are gathering dust. There hasn't been a Soapbox article in a very long time. The support site is like something from an old dream; one can't exactly remember.

For my part, I believe that this is primarily a consequence of Bungie's success in recent years. They were once velociraptors amongst sauropods; now the roles are reversed.

  • 01.28.2007 2:10 PM PDT

If you don't got it, you want it. If you got it, you want more of it. Of course if you don't know what it is, it's hard to get any in the first place.

I apologize for my use of the Term B.net retards. I recognize that using it makes me sound like an elitist. I apologize for it, as it wasn't my intent. I do not mean in anyway that the average user of B.net is a retard. i merely meant to point out the "Spammers, jerks, 11 year olds, etc" who seem to run rampant in parts of the forum, sowing disorder and chaos.

Can you honestly tell me that The Halo 3 forum, New Mombassa/ Zanzibar, Optimatch, and even parts of The Flood aren't filled to the brim with people that are of all sorts and measures that fill a degree of unpleasantness? Can you say your not tired of seeing the same repetitive threads in these forums? Can you honestly tell me that the kind of people instigating something as idiotic as a forum war between New Mombassa and The Flood are the kind of people that are good for a fan community? Can you honestly tell the difference between those 2 forums even? I sure as hell can't.

I don't have any facts to back this up. But I feel like half the community on Bungie.net has been taken over by illiterate, rude, self -centered jerks. This isn't to say that The Halo 3 thread doesn't have a good day every once in a while, but the proof is in-front of everyone. There is a huge difference in the quality of posts found in the underground, 7th Column, and groups, compared to the rest of the website (Excluding the Maw).

  • 01.28.2007 3:21 PM PDT
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Hey robo, I agree, nature has set its course on Bungie.net. And mother nature is a wicked bi7ch.

~My Symese Twin agrees

[Edited on 1/28/2007]

  • 01.28.2007 3:56 PM PDT
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  • Elder Mythic Member

anyone who's played more than you has no life

anyone who's played less than you is a noob

change is the only constant.

the community has changed, and so must the forums to reflect this. Any major company has no real sense of community spirit; take a look at the WoW forums to take an example. They are far more active and larger than bungie.net, and the intelligent:retard post ratio is even lower, sadly.

I'd like to see much more strict ninja action taken out on spam threads - delete them and blacklist offenders on the spot. Who wants repeat threads cluttering the forums? Every single day someone posts "i hate THC" "BR is bettr dan SMG" "omg this BK cheats" - get rid of them - locked threads on the front page just bury any threads that might be worth keeping.

A spotlight feature would be awesome for certain groups around b.net :-)

  • 01.28.2007 5:30 PM PDT
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Location: Outlaws' Summit.

Meh.

We'll see how the site/company is after Halo 3 is released.

  • 01.28.2007 5:43 PM PDT

Posted by: Shishka
You want to know what it'd be like to have no moderators on this site? Try this easy to prepare simulation.
Step 1: Procure yourself an intact box, something a fridge or similarly large appliance.
Step 2: Fill cardboard box halfway with feral cats. One or two should be rabid.
Step 3: Climb inside the box, closing the top behind you.
Step 4: Begin screaming and thrashing wildly at the cats.

Posted by: ICEMAN ASSASS1N
Meh.

We'll see how the site/company is after Halo 3 is released.


But see, the whole point is a lot of the great community was lost with the coming of Halo. Lets try to work as hard as possible to prevent anything bad happening to the community when Halo 3 is released now. If we wait and then when Halo 3 comes the community is destroyed (Not going to happen, but it makes the situation seem serious) then what will we do?

  • 01.28.2007 5:47 PM PDT
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Location: Outlaws' Summit.

Posted by: The Black Knight
Posted by: ICEMAN ASSASS1N
Meh.

We'll see how the site/company is after Halo 3 is released.


But see, the whole point is a lot of the great community was lost with the coming of Halo. Lets try to work as hard as possible to prevent anything bad happening to the community when Halo 3 is released now. If we wait and then when Halo 3 comes the community is destroyed (Not going to happen, but it makes the situation seem serious) then what will we do?


But therein lies the problem- there's nothing we can do. At least, the way I see it is that when Halo 3 is released there is going to be a considerable increase in the activity on this site.

That means more complaining from people not being happy with what they want the game to be, more people coming here and not being familiar with the Rules (which will cause a lot of others to either be very annoyed or attempt to help,) and by that time there should be a considerable divide between the existing people who post regularly.

It'll be a zoo, to say the least. But it won't be much of a community, at least upon the first couple months after the game's launch :-/

But that's just my twisted spin on the subject ;-)

  • 01.28.2007 6:00 PM PDT
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The Frozen Minority - The most infamous clan borne from the Seventh Column.

We need more community activities I think. The bathroom reader somewhat accopmplished these before we lost Jim, and thus motivation. Community spotlights, community groups playing each other on live, things like that.

Shame everyone has stopped playing halo 2... we could bond! I think humpdays with the community instead of the lucky Microsoft official alpha testers would be better. Make the community feel loved again.

Maybe we could do this once the H3 community alpha releases... I dont know. I am getting bored here, feels like we are whittling away the hours untill H3 releases instead of interacting as an E-society as I once remember we did.

  • 01.28.2007 6:29 PM PDT

If you don't got it, you want it. If you got it, you want more of it. Of course if you don't know what it is, it's hard to get any in the first place.

Posted by: The Black Knight
then what will we do?


What will we do?

I think that's the most important we should be asking. No one wants to be the forgotten leftovers of course, but I think it's integral that those who truly believe in this community have to find a way to prevent any further decline.

People take refuge in The Underground, and The Seventh Column, in the Groups, and The Maw. So what might I ask, is it that drives them to these forums?

Is it the threads? The OMG BK CHEET, OMG HOWI FIND THIS< DEMON DOR ON COAG. threads? The WHOS XCITED FZER HALO 3 threads?

No, I think that's only a symptom of the problem. Instead I propose we look back to a time when the forums were in a state of anarchy. No not the announcement of Halo 3.

I mean to take a look back to a veritable dark ages for the forum. The post Halo 2 launch. When Halo 2 first launched, that was when the first community "culling" seems to have taken place. A massive influx of new users going to B.net for the first time due to game-tag linking and stat tracking. This brought a great deal of "casual" crowd into B.net, where instead of dedicated Bungie fans, we had Halo 2 players who weren't necessarily part of the community. This brought a much more chaotic mix to the forums. THen we have the groups" who started "shouting" after Halo 2 launched. I'm talking about....

The vocal Halo 2 sucks crowd, with their obnoxious behavior and remarks, spammed up the forum, and was the root of many flame wars. The MLG crowd was also a subject of forum dark ages, whether you agree with the play-style or not, with their flame wars causing much contention that all discussion of it had to be banned from the forums. In some essences these groups are the same in many ideals.

(I personally believe that from what I've seen of the Myth community, Ranked gameplay brings forth a very ugly competitive side from the community base. Just look at the divide between MariusNet and Playmyth. But that's for another discussion.)

Through all of that havoc, members were banned, people migrated from the forums to other "satellite" forums. ( No comment at this time on that.)

It was the people which were being detrimental to the community as a whole. Frankly with Bungie as popular as it is, there will always be a rush, an influx of new members. However, how many of these members aren't just "Game of the Month" members, how many of them are actual Bungie fans and converts, and how many will contribute positively to the community?

That's the only way any true sense of community will remain in Bungie. The only way to hold the b.net community together is to be a strong, positive, contributing force to Bungie. More community interaction, more spotlights, more fan gatherings, more more more.

Now here's something that I've been thinking about: The people. We hide in groups where we can have personal interaction with other members in a calm setting, we cluster in The underground and Septagon because these are the places that we feel we can express our enthusiasm about Bungie. If we were just Halo fans we'd be in New Mombassa, Optimatch, and Halo 3 forum (I'll refer to it as The Ark) We're Bungie fans.

How many of you care about who is employed at Bungie, and had actual enthusiasm when I heard that KP was hired by Bungie? I didn't even know who KP was, but I was enthusiastic about his hiring.

How many of you have gone to Pathways.Bungie.Org, to Marathon.Bungie.Org, and to Myth.Bungie.Org, and soaked in the lore?

How many of you remember, or have heard of the amazing contests and fan gatherings Bungie used to hold?

I'm going to guess that there are those reading this who fit all of the above criteria. It's our dedication to a kick ass company that drives us. We need to do our part.



STOP. What is below is pure conjecture, and just open thought. Do not percieve it to be arrogance, and do not meet it with anger. If you feel I'm mistaken, please correct me so that I may not make the same mistake in the future.
I'm also going to guess there is a little bit of sadness related to the above.
I never even knew who KP was. I had no idea how he was hired, and only heard a very brief explanation of what he did at HBO. To me, HBO is a very strange and foreign beast. I only occasionally lurk the forums, and every month or two I check the story page. I do look at the front page a couple days a week. So I'm very confused how a social community like HBO developed, and seems to be more accepted by Bungie, than the community of their own website. I'm not jealous of KP, he seemed like a cool guy from the little time I barely met him at Child's Play. I'm just confused by Bungie's attitude to the main forums. Are we little children who need to be babysat to them? Are we just not "Mature" enough?

All the old lore of the ancient Bungie games are amazing reads. It's truly staggering to see the fan community for these games, and the story theories. However, if you look, it seems that most of Marathon's plot was tied up by the incredible Hammish Sinclair around 2001. Thanks to the Aleph One project it's recieved a infusion of new players and members, but otherwise is somewhat slow. Myth.Bungie.Org is a ghost town, only maintained for legacies sake. Support for the site almost dropped off totally 1-2 years ago. Massive fan communities made content for Marathon and Myth. Just look at the Marathon scenarios, or the amazing plugins and Total Conversions that have been made for Myth. ( ie TSG, Jinn, Mazz 6, Bushido, B&G)

This leads into my next point...

The fan gatherings. Bungie used to Hold Bungiefests, parties were to be had at Macworld, and great joy was passed around. So where have these things gone? We have web contests, and whatnot, but ultimately it seems like that last "in name" Bungiefest was the Halo 2 launch party (which I did happen to attend). However the only gathers I've seen of Bungie now seem to be things organised by HBO, and Louis Wu. I don't pretend to understand how those work, and I wish I could be educated on how they are set up, the guest list decided, and everything set into motion.

With regards to the above, don't think me an expert. If you have any knowledge as to some of my questions, or corrections to my points or information, or even outright rebuttles, I want to hear it. Any further education on the subject, or viewpoints, can only serve to help further quest for knowledge and truth. Please don't think me arrogant. I'm just saying what I've been thinking for a year now. I just want answers, and I'm begging you guys for them.




[Edited on 1/28/2007]

  • 01.28.2007 7:11 PM PDT

Controlling fission events without incident since May, 2012.

Posted by: BobBQ
The Webmaster is AWOL.


Poor poor Webmaster... where have you gone...

  • 01.28.2007 7:32 PM PDT

Why the hell are you looking at this? Get out.

And no group invites, you jerk. I'm not interested.

Posted by: Master Chef
Posted by: BobBQ
The Webmaster is AWOL.


Poor poor Webmaster... where have you gone...

On a world record beer run. Duh.

  • 01.28.2007 7:36 PM PDT

*Sgt

Posted by: Pezza
We need more community activities I think. The bathroom reader somewhat accopmplished these before we lost Jim


What do you mean by lost? I know he's still a mod, but does he come here much anymore? My guess is now, since I never see him :p

  • 01.28.2007 7:40 PM PDT

If you don't got it, you want it. If you got it, you want more of it. Of course if you don't know what it is, it's hard to get any in the first place.

Posted by: ALIENwolve
Posted by: Master Chef
Posted by: BobBQ
The Webmaster is AWOL.


Poor poor Webmaster... where have you gone...

On a world record beer run. Duh.


I'm starting to think his alcohol habit was getting too costly for Bungie, which is why they keep no beer in the office.

  • 01.28.2007 7:40 PM PDT

Controlling fission events without incident since May, 2012.

I guess from my perspective i'm going to wait and see what becomes of Bungie.net after the hype is over, or at least temporarily settled.

  • 01.28.2007 7:42 PM PDT

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